Phil Holloway [00:00:00]:
You know, I'm a big believer that life begins and ends and recycles in the soil. It's not that I am against chemical applications in whatever field they may be in.
Jay Archer [00:00:09]:
In intelligent, responsible land care. And the people who do the work should be talking and teaching and sharing their information and experiences.
Phil Holloway [00:00:21]:
What drives me to be more passionate about what I'm working on is that we have become as a society, society chemically dependent.
Jay Archer [00:00:28]:
You know, there's a lot of people in the industry that do care, and they just don't know how to go about it.
Phil Holloway [00:00:33]:
Anything that grows green, it's fascinating of how it works. So when you start deep diving into some of those sciences and the biology of how things work, it's a never ending cycle.
00:48 - Welcoming Guests and Introducing Jay Archer and Phil Holloway
Jack Jostes [00:00:48]:
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Landscapers Guide podcast. Today I'm excited to have Jay Archer from Green Jay Landscape Design in New York and Phil Holloway from Go Green Customized Lawn Care in York, Pennsylvania. So I recently had Jay out to the Ramblin Jackson studio here in Colorado, and we did a podcast conversation around his approach to natural pest control and soil restoration. And Phil, my other client, heard the podcast and reached out to say, hey, I want to have a follow up conversation. So this is actually the first time we're doing this. But I love respectful debate. I know there's a lot that the two of you agree on.
Jack Jostes [00:01:32]:
I'm curious to hear different viewpoints, and I also know that we all love Mother Nature. So let's, let's just get into our conversation, and if first, if you could share a brief introduction. Phil, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.
Phil Holloway [00:01:48]:
I'm the owner of the Go Green Customized Lawn Care. We started this company in 2009. We originally started out as a full service company and transitioned to just specializing in lawn treatments. Everything I've learned has been self taught, observed, reaching out to experts and knowledgeable people with just basically having the right questions always have answers. I've come to the conclusion that with the goals that I have and what I want to offer to my clients and future generations, I'll never discover everything in this lifetime. So it's when I specialized in lawn care, I thought my ADD was going to kick in and I was going to get bored, but it's been anything but. It's become a very serious passion and something that drives me 24/7.
Jack Jostes [00:02:44]:
Awesome, Phil. So, Jay, tell us a little bit about your background.
Jay Archer [00:02:48]:
Yeah. Hi, so, I'm Jay Archer and I am a landscape ecologist. That's how I identify and describe myself. So basically I started also in lawn care industry, kind of the opposite of Phil. So my experience was I started as a lawn technician and became a sales manager and turf agronomist for a Lawn Doctor. And I was also did not have a turf degree, but I apprenticed and mentored with Dr. John Henske, who did. He was a turf agronomist trained from Penn State. And I was very interested and still I'm in, you know, law care and diseases and how things grow and, you know, nature.
Jay Archer [00:03:43]:
And I developed from seeing so many beautiful landscapes in the Gold coast of the east coast. I became more and more interested in design, so I gradually studied more in New York Botanical Garden and Rutgers, and I started my own company. And also I was a full service landscape design build company and started off specializing in lawn care. Wound up doing less of that and more landscape design and construction and landscape architecture. And I started with 5000 clients in Stanford Lawn Doctor in the Gold coast of Connecticut and New York, and I went down to 500 in a smaller franchise that I was running. And then I started my full service company and I went down to 200 full service clients that we did everything, including filling their bird feeders. So that's what kind of full service was. We cleaned their gutters, we cleaned their bird cleaners, we did exclusive estate management so that no one else would be on the property and we had autonomous control and that was our niche in the sense. I went down from 200 clients and 50 employees to 200, then I went down to 100.
Jay Archer [00:05:05]:
And I started this company, Green Jay, twelve years ago and we specialize in organic land care and organic lawn care was a component of that. And I went down to 50 full service clients and I had 15 employees. Then I finally went down to ten estate management clients and a couple of years ago I gave that up. I actually just passed it off to two of the services providers and colleagues that I've been working with for a long time. One provides grounds maintenance services, the other one provides organic lawn care services and plant health care. And since then we've just been concentrating an eco design build. So I'm very interested that we have contrary paths, so we've crossed over a lot of common ground on the way to different places and different point of view, I'm sure.
06:13 - Exploring Common Ground and Differences in Lawn Care Approaches
Jack Jostes [00:06:13]:
Well, excellent. Yeah, so thanks for sharing a little background. So Phil, what did you hear from the interview with Jay that, I mean, what is some common ground? What did you hear that you agreed with that resonated with you?
Phil Holloway [00:06:28]:
I agree with the majority of everything he had to say, and you kind of hit the nail on the head at the beginning of this conversation where you said, we're both basically soil nerds. So I'm a big believer that life begins and ends and recycles in the soil. There's a lot of biblical verses. You know, we come from dust, return to dust. So it's amazing how we have been misguided and how there are so many people who are on this path to, you know, depending on the daily terminology, regenerative agriculture or healthier landscapes or healthier soil. And it's not that I am against chemical applications in whatever field they may be in. What irks me or what drives me to be more passionate about what I'm working on is that we have become, as a society, chemically dependent, and through those dependencies, even Jay mentioned in his previous podcast with you about how we keep just treating the symptoms instead of treating the problems. And I believe there is a healthier way.
Phil Holloway [00:07:42]:
I've become driven and focused, and it's actually become my purpose to develop and find ways and make discoveries so that we're not dependent on synthetic and chemical applications.
Jack Jostes [00:07:56]:
So that sounds similar to a lot of what Jay said. So where. Phil, what was the point that you maybe when you reached out to me, you're like, hey, I want to come and talk with you and Jay on the podcast. What was it that. Where. Where's the. Where's the gap?
08:11 - Debating Turf Utility and Water Conservation
Phil Holloway [00:08:11]:
Well, I don't know that there's necessarily a gap. I think, you know, I respect. I have a lot of respect for Jay and his education, his experience, and his vision. I guess there are times where you come across comments about turf or about grass, about how it serves no purpose. And Jay had a comment, something I don't remember verbatim, but about how, you know, grass is a, you know, vegetation that we water, that we don't harvest or have any cash crops from, but I found so many more uses for it and developing more of a healthier concept and understanding it. You know, when it's driven and grown properly it becomes more of a giving source back to the environment. And I'm a big believer in bio, a balanced biodiversity. You know, we don't have all trees.
Phil Holloway [00:09:06]:
We don't have all grass. We don't have all weeds. Everything has a purpose. And, you know, as I study lawns and. And, you know, many other things that I'm into growing, and, like Jay said, anything that. That grows green, it's fascinating of how it works and what its purpose is. So when you start deep diving into some of those sciences and the biology of how things work. It's a never ending cycle.
Phil Holloway [00:09:35]:
A lot of the seminars that I've been to, they say that the smartest soil scientist knows less than 5% about the soil profile. Well, I look at that as a great opportunity to discover the next 1% that we can pass on to the next generation, so that we can have a healthier environment and have a healthier way of dealing with pests and issues.
Jack Jostes [00:09:58]:
Well, I wanted to maybe, maybe clarify the comment from Jay, from that podcast, because I know sometimes when I'm on stage or I'm on a podcast, I'm kind of flowing, and maybe I didn't say it exactly what I meant, or maybe Jay said exactly what he meant. So Jay, what you'd said in that interview was about water. It was really in the nature of water conservation. And you said, can we live in a world that continues to use this much water in the United States to grow the biggest crop you can't eat? So that was. What did you mean by that, Jay?
Jay Archer [00:10:38]:
Well, first of all, I think it's really great to meet you, Phil, and I think it's not necessary that we all have PhDs. Boys, as you point out, nobody knows everything. Everything is constantly changing. And we're responding, hopefully, and not just reacting to the environment. And we're acquiring skills, and the climate's changing, everything's changing around us. We've also had so much tremendous impact on the land in the past 400 years here in the United States in terms of actual water management. When I think about the significant amount of water that we need to manage and the biomass. So while there's a place for turf grass, and it's certainly better than infrastructure and it's better than bare soil, except a small area that we do need for bees.
Jay Archer [00:11:36]:
And last night I saw the birds bathing in the dirt bath, you know, around the corner from my house. But we don't need a lot of space for that kind of thing. So I'm fully supportive in a sense of space for children to play in a purposeful lawn, but we do need to irrigate so much lawn, particularly in arid areas of the country where these resources are precious. So in our case, we have an awful lot of square footage of turf grass that is being maintained. So my question is, is that really in the future sustainable? So from my point of view, I'd say no compared to root to shoot biomass, thats going to filter water more efficiently and also increase the health of the soil exponentially, I don't want to say I have no problem with turf grass. Yeah, I have issues because I've been engaged in the practice myself, both in the grounds maintenance and in, you know, treating lawns and so forth. But stepping back now and reducing lawn areas in my landscapes has changed my view just in terms of how I see the world, how I see our place as human beings, and how I see the interrelationship of all the other organisms that inhabit our landscapes. I like what Phil was saying about the soil.
13:17 - The Importance of Soil Health and Plant Care Techniques
Jay Archer [00:13:17]:
If you care about what you're doing with the plants, the plant could be a tree, a shrub, a perennial, or it could be turf grass, which is, you know, little to microcosm of life on earth. So, you know, that's where we do, you know, share some interest.
Phil Holloway [00:13:37]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, I didn't realize this statistics, but I came across something here today. It says only 2% of the landscape in the United States is covered by turf grass. So it'd be interesting to see what percentage of that 2% actually waters. I don't educate my customers to water. I don't suggest that they water. I control the green and the turf by how we mow. I consider mowing an art.
Phil Holloway [00:14:04]:
There's a technique to it. There's a height pattern that you should be maintaining. There's certain times a year where you need to mow a little bit more. And there are certain times a year where you should be mowing less or not at all. There's sometimes during summer months, I don't mow four or five weeks. So if it's hot and dry, park the mower, save the emissions, don't use the fuel, go do something else. Play in your landscape beds. Plant another tree or shrub, you know, but stay off the mower.
Phil Holloway [00:14:32]:
So it would be interesting to see, I now, I know in southern hotter states, you know, watering is a big thing to keep their grass green. But, you know, there's also different minerals, there's different biology, there's mycorrhizae, there's other things that could reduce that amount of watering by having a more healthy soil aspect. But because we have been so chemically and synthetically driven, you know, and if you know much about a lot of those, they're high salt base, so you're putting a lot of salt into your soil. And, and I learned from a lot of people, and I can do a synthetic program just as good as anybody else, if not better. But I refuse to do that because of the obstacles that it confronts you with. You know, the symptoms that they call problems in the middle of summer with turf disease, insect damage, you just leave yourself so more susceptible when you leave that heavy salt base behind and you dehydrate that soil and you start affecting the microbiology. So I think there's other techniques, and I educate our customers. I think education is, and I think, Jay, you're the same way.
Phil Holloway [00:15:44]:
Education is a big piece of this environmental aspect where, you know, for years it was just common sense to me how to do things. And I was ten years into the business before I considered myself an expert. And that was just a humble nature in me. But, you know, when as soon as we started beginning to educate customers and we're becoming even, we broke it down from just a generic mowing sheet for the year to now, we broke it down to seasonal. So there's a spring mowing test technique, there's a summer mowing technique, there's a fall mowing technique. So, and all the above, the longer you can keep that turf active, the more growing days you can have, the healthier the system is going to be.
Jay Archer [00:16:26]:
Well, what you find this guy? I mean, now I get all excited about talking about grass. Wow, that's, that's a challenge.
16:33 - Lawn Care Education and Regional Variations in Management
Jay Archer [00:16:33]:
Boy. Dude, I work pretty well. I think you should take this show on the road. That was great. You know, is all this on your website, all this information about the majority of it?
Phil Holloway [00:16:44]:
There's, you know, Jay, it was very interesting watching you in that podcast. The way you were talking with your hands and your. I could see the visualization in your head. I mean, that I think you're a brother from another mother, because there's a lot of things that we agree on. There's a visualization skill that it takes to understand what we're talking about. And my biggest problem is how to simplify this so that people can understand it. And because it's so vast and so broad and there isn't any variables that are identical. I mean, if I go, depending how, you know, in my field anyway, yours might be a little bit different, but depending how somebody mows, depending on the soil types you know, we deal with a lot of, a lot of difficulties, so.
Phil Holloway [00:17:28]:
And whether they maintain their mower last. I mean, how many times a year did they sharpen their blades? So, yeah, there, there is, there is a good bit of this information on there, but there's certainly not enough. But, you know, sometimes less is more. So that is something that we are. We did do some minor upgrades to the website about a year ago. You know, and I'm looking forward to really getting that website where it needs to be and, you know, eventually doing. I mean, this is actually my first. I've been saying for years, I've been wanting to do videos.
Phil Holloway [00:18:03]:
And I realized the importance of it, um, however time, you know, if this would have been me tonight and I wasn't obligated to you guys and the commitment I made I'd probably be out running another experiment. I'd be playing here on the farm somewhere, working on a piece of equipment. I don't sit still. So there, I could have found 10,000 excuses why not to do a video, but. So, I'm really thankful, Jack, that you put this together and, Jay, for participating. It's truly an honor to be here with you guys.
Jack Jostes [00:18:38]:
One thing I'm thinking about over here is I grew up outside of Chicago in the Chicago suburbs, and water was no problem there. I had a nice lawn. We had no irrigation system. It was no issue to grow grass for me or any of my neighbors, and I mowed lawns for my neighbors. No one had an irrigation system. I now live in Colorado, and, and allegedly, we're out of the drought. But when I moved here, we were in the middle of a drought, and it's you, you really have to water to grow grass here. How much of this do you think varies regionally? Because I think what I'm hearing from Phil is, like he's telling some of his clients, you don't need to irrigate, because maybe where you're based geographically, you have enough rainfall that you can grow your lawn without it.
Jack Jostes [00:19:33]:
How much do you think this varies? The answer varies regionally based on rainfall.
Phil Holloway [00:19:42]:
I've observed it where it varied from one side of the county to the other. And that's just a small geographic region compared to what you're talking about. So a lot of that just depends on the jet stream and how things are flowing. There's plenty of times we're on the other side of the, you know, the east side of the mountain, so there's times where it's been dry and you see rain coming, and it hits that dry area of the mountains and. And it's gone. So. And it doesn't reach us. So it does vary considerably, for sure.
Phil Holloway [00:20:13]:
But I think that's too, that's where you know, you got different, you got a variety of grass types that. To grow in different regions that are more tolerant to those kind of things. So maybe we just need to become more adaptive with the species of grasses that we’re growing in these areas. You know, that's a very open ended question. But I think by implementing the right healthy organic matter, biology, minerals, and you're not necessarily chemically dependent in putting excessive salts into the soil that you can begin. It's interesting you mentioned about the amount of rainfall, because I don't just study turf, but I study anything that has to do with soil. And farming is one thing. That interests me, too, because that basically consumes 75% of the fertilization market.
Phil Holloway [00:21:07]:
And a lot of farmers will gauge their success for the season by what are my yields and how much rainfall did I get? Well, I flipped that question around, and I want to say, but how much rain did you absorb and keep? And what is the nutrient density of the food you're producing? So it's a lot of its perspective, and I just don't think that we're educated enough or there's not enough educators out there to reach the audience, which, even though only 2% of the United States is covered by turf grass, I find that an opportunity for the biggest audience that we can educate. So it varies even from one end of the county to the other, Jack.
Jack Jostes [00:21:55]:
Yeah, I think that's fascinating that it varies that much for you within the same county. And I'm curious if, Jay, like, how much of it. How do you see this playing out in your neck of the woods?
22:10 - Environmental Stewardship and the Financial Aspects of Lawn Care
Jay Archer [00:22:10]:
Well, you know, the rain and, you know, water management is, we do a lot of stormwater, and that's a whole nother story. But I got to tell you, what I hear from Phil is intelligent, responsible land care. And the people who do the work should be talking and teaching and sharing their information and experiences. We can't rely on, you know, PhDs and scientists who don't spend as much time in the field and have the experience, you know, growing this. It's very important when you're working in turf grass, if you are able to be the control and you're mowing. And what you said was very important, boys, sharpening the blades is the first, most important thing. It's not the fun part, right. Nobody wants to sharpen the blades.
Jay Archer [00:23:04]:
You got to put on the safety glasses, and you have to make sure you don't ruin the blades. But if, you know, after a day of mowing, your blade is shot. So you got to sharpen those blades was. That's. That's when you're going to lose the water. Okay? That's the first thing. And that's going to impact. You also have to cut at a reasonable height.
Jay Archer [00:23:24]:
A lot of these lawnmowers, you know, they're cutting with a blade they haven't sharpened all week, and they're two inches and they're pulling the grass. They're doing lower blade injury. They're using up water. This is all can be avoided. These are easy, simple things. And you're so on point when you talk about soluble salts. You don't have to get into doing soil testing, which we've done a lot of soil testing. And what you're talking about reminds me of the experience in the relationship we had with Branch Creek, which is not too far from you.
Jay Archer [00:23:57]:
Regenerative law systems. And, you know, the whole idea here is less inputs to get greater results. You can call it yield. You can explain it whatever way you want. The first rule is do no harm. So I just love the fact that you care so much about what you're doing. You're thinking about, should I mow the lawn? If I'm going to take a machine on the lawn that's going to improve that, I'm going to first add commitment to sharp blades. Wow, that's a lot.
Jay Archer [00:24:25]:
Okay. So if anybody's out there, you know, wondering how you can improve your lawn care practices, sharpen your blades, right. It's a simple thing. And make sure your machine doesn't leak gas on the, on the lawn, you know, that you're up to speed. You did your repairs. You did get a new machine. You know, do what you got to do.
Phil Holloway [00:24:44]:
These are the simple things, the simple things that are most often neglected that, you know, you've mentioned sharp blades and how, you know, I can pull up the yard and I can tell where the blades are sharpened. If you got a white haze across the yard, you know, the blades are ripped. And if the longer it takes those blades to self heal, the blades of the grass, the more moisture you're going to lose. So during a dehydrated part of the season where we don't have a lot of rain and the lawn is still green, if those blades aren't sharp and you're ripping that blade, well, you just let the moisture evaporate right out of your lawn and you threw it right into dormancy. And you just have to hold on until we get, you know, proper soil temperatures number one, and enough rainfall for it to recover. And I've seen some lawns stay dormant for two or three months because of the type of seasons that we've had and mismanagement so that that part is 100% right on.
Jack Jostes [00:25:40]:
Over the last decade, I was just reading on Bluefield Research that the price of water has increased at a faster rate than any other utility. It's up 43% over the last ten years. So from just from a business perspective, I think the market is going to solve this pretty quick here. If people's water bill goes that high and mowing their lawns, like, there's going to be pressure to solve this problem not only from an environmental aspect, but from an economic standpoint. How do you see that? Do you see that? To me, that's where getting buyers, getting customers, homeowners, landowners, I think a lot of it's the financial incentive that's going to make these changes happen. What do you think?
Phil Holloway [00:26:29]:
Possibly in my business, and I, for example, have an employee who didn't know anything about lawn care two years ago, and now he's hooked. So last summer, he was one of two that I knew that watered. I had one customer and him, and they watered early. They got their roots established deep, and then when it got hot and dry, they were one of the two greenish yards around. So, you know, I kind of let him do his thing, but then I also educate him, too, and say, hey, look, you don't necessarily need to do it that much. You know, I understand you want to have a nice green lawn, but at the same time, you know, we got to be stewards of our environment. So I think financially, yeah, you know, it is difficult times. It's much different than it was five years ago.
Phil Holloway [00:27:17]:
You know, a lot prices are up, nothing's really going down. I mean, it's somewhat stable, but, you know, luckily there's not the new thing. You know, like it was there for a while that kind of kept hitting us in a pocketbook. So I think as a society or, you know, we've kind of adjusted somewhat. I think the stewardship and the education piece could change that tremendously. More so than money. I mean. Yeah, you say about the expensive water.
Phil Holloway [00:27:44]:
I mean, I, you know, many times we go into convenience stores and, you know, look for something to drink, and water is almost as much as a soda nowadays, so.
Jack Jostes [00:27:55]:
Right.
Phil Holloway [00:27:56]:
It's kind of silly.
Jack Jostes [00:27:57]:
We've already spent about a half an hour. Do you guys have any final questions for me or each other or anything to help kind of wrap up?
28:04 - Final Thoughts from Jay & Phil
Jay Archer [00:28:04]:
Well, you know, first of all, Jack, I give you a lot of credit for, you know, putting this together. You would think the green industry already is communicating on the level that we are communicating, which is very basic. I mean, this is just, you know, how easy is this to have a conversation, really, and, you know, share information? But what I get is that we all care about this stuff so much, you know? And there's a lot of people in an industry that do care, and they just don't know how to go about it. So, you know, education isn't easy to come by when you're working ten and 12 hours a day and you have all these things. And I will tell you, people are always going to pay for quality no matter what you do. I remember one of my teachers, my favorite landscape architect from NY Botanical Gardens, and I was taking classes with her before I was teaching there, and she tried to embarrass me in front of the class. She says, you can even make money in the maintenance business. Just ask Jay.
Jay Archer [00:29:08]:
Right. And I said quick as I could to, I says, you can make money doing anything that you're good at. You know? Her point was that if you're not a landscape architect with a, you know, a license and a degree, you're like a little step below. And we don't have a class structure in our industry, which is an advantage to us. So you can move up mobile, you can, you know, be your own boss. You can, like, rise up, you know, within a company pretty rapidly. It's really a great place to get. It's a great industry to get it, an education to get advanced, to expand your.
Jay Archer [00:29:46]:
Your mind and your knowledge and your. Your relationship and your experience with nature. It's just a humongous opportunity to do all that, whether you're, you're hearing about the lawn. Like, he loves the lawn. Like, oh, man, that's, like, impressive, I gotta say. You know, or, you know, I got the trees behind me, and I'm like, yeah, now I'm dying down. Thinking. I should sharpen my blades.
Jay Archer [00:30:10]:
Whoa. I don't have a lawn anymore. I don't actually have to sharpen my blades. This is just the fundamentals. So very cool. I'm really happy we did this.
Jack Jostes [00:30:22]:
Hey, it's Jack Jostes, and thanks so much for listening to today's episode of the Landscaper's Guide. I had a blast interviewing Jay and Phil, and like they said, they're like two peas in a pod or brothers from another mother. And every time I talk with my clients, I just want to get them together because there's so many different viewpoints. There's so many different backgrounds and levels of expertise and education. But really, what I believe the industry is after is preserving the earth and making it beautiful and doing what's right. And I love this kind of conversation. And Phil and Jay, after we stopped recording, had a great I think they're going to be buddies, right? So, and if you disagree with something on the podcast, that's how this all started. I think having a productive conversation at Ramblin Jackson, we call it rumbling.
Jack Jostes [00:31:16]:
It's like healthy debate. I'm up for it. So if you have a follow up conversation topic or a question for me, or if you know someone who should be a guest on this show, I want to hear from you. You can suggest them at landscapersguide.com/guest or just send me an email jack@ramblinjackson.com and I've put together a Landscaper's Marketing Toolbox, so I get the opportunity to work with both Phil and Jay directly on their businesses. And if you're curious about that, if you want to learn more about what's working, how do you generate Hell Yes Customer leads through your digital marketing. And where should you start? I'd love to send you a Landscaper's Marketing Toolbox. It includes beef jerky. Yes, sir.
Jack Jostes [00:32:05]:
I'm going to send you a bag of beef jerky in the mail, shipped right to your doorstep to help you save time, headache, and the expense of experimenting with marketing that doesn't work. This simple guide will help you figure out what's been tested and proven with over 100 landscape companies. So request yours today at landscapersguide.com/toolbox and click the show notes. Whether you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever, just click the, click the show notes and there's a quick link to that toolbox page. All right, everyone, again, it's Jack Jostes. Thanks so much for listening to the Landscaper's Guide. Hope to talk to you again next week and maybe see you at one of the upcoming trade shows.
Jack Jostes [00:32:48]:
We're going to be at the, we're going to be in North Carolina for their Educational Summit. I'm speaking, we've got a booth, and we're going to be speaking at the SIMA Symposium in Pittsburgh in June. We've got a whole lot of cool stuff. So check out our events page, landscapersguide.com/events, to see more about where we can connect and with that, have an awesome weekend and I'll talk to you next week.
Show Notes:
Watch the full episode + see the transcript at: https://landscapersguide.com/podcast/
Tell us where to send your beef jerky: https://landscapersguide.com/toolbox
Check out Go Green Customized Lawn Care: https://gogreenclc.com
Check out Green Jay Landscape Design: https://www.greenjaylandscapedesign.com/
Register for one of our upcoming events: https://landscapersguide.com/events