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00:00 – Why Landscaping Is Changing Fast
00:00
Scott Callenius
You know, I think as owners, we get very like this, you know what I mean? We're just thinking about the next job, the next project. It's an interesting time to be, you know, in landscaping as far as, you know, what projects are out there to do. And you have to think a little bit outside the box. Technology is changing a lot of stuff. And, you know, we're embracing technology differently here. You know, it's more about the systems and the processes behind the scenes and.
01:00 – Meet Scott Callenius And His Business Growth
00:23
Jack Jostes
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the landscapers Guide podcast. Today I'm excited to have a repeat guest, Scott Callenius from Forever Green Landscape Services. And Scott and I have worked, we've worked together since 2008 and he's been on the podcast. This will be his third time. And so Scott is always growing and changing and doing interesting things. And I just, we had a call the other day, just called to catch up with you. And I'm like, you know, we should talk about this on the podcast. So, Scott, thanks for coming back on the landscapers guide.
01:00
Scott Callenius
Jack, I'm happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me back. I always love to have a conversation with you.
01:05
Jack Jostes
So I will link to the other interviews, but for folks who maybe haven't met you, could you share a little bit about who you are, where your company is and what are you up to? Sure.
01:17
Scott Callenius
My name is Scott Kolinius and I own Forever Green Landscape Services in West Palm Beach, Florida. And I've been around for about 35. Started really young. And over the last three years, you know, since we've really had our last podcast, the company's grown tremendously. It used to just be me and a couple people and, you know, me doing everything. And now I have two assistants, thanks to you. And I have a full time arborist and a full time landscape designer. I have a sales business developer. I have somebody running all my crews now. And life has really changed, man. You know, I've looking to like, expand. It's not always about the revenue growth and stuff. It's more about, you know, for me, creating a job that I like to go to every day and be around people that I love to work with.
03:15 – Hiring Assistants And Letting Go Of Control
02:03
Jack Jostes
Well, I, I really like that last part about what you said about creating a job that you really like to be at every day. And I'm curious about the hires. So you mentioned you've hired two assistants. And I remember working with you initially, I think you were under a million in revenue and that was Kind of the first goal was to break a million. And we helped design your website. We've done search engine optimization. You've been here in the studio. We've done video in Colorado. We've done a lot of work together. And then sometimes I have an assistant. And I think through working together, you learned that, and we talked about what's that like? And her name's Faith, right?
02:47
Scott Callenius
Correct. Yeah. I did speak to Aaron, if you remember. I ended up talking to Aaron.
02:51
Jack Jostes
Yeah. So Erin works with me. She's since been promoted to our operations manager, so she still works with me very heavily as my assistant. And I interviewed her on the podcast, and it's. She's really brilliant. And tell us. Yeah, tell us a little bit about what was that like? So you've hired an assistant, and then it worked well, and you hired another assistant. What. What does that mean?
03:17
Scott Callenius
Well, I think. I think as owners, Jack, you know, we think we can do everything right, and we don't need help, you know, from anybody outside. You know, I don't think we can ever vision what it would be like to have help. Right? Because we're always. Maybe we don't trust, or maybe we've had a bad experience and we always think, hey, we can do everything ourselves better. You know, why. Why should I trust somebody else? Or. One of the biggest things I learned is you have to teach other people, right? You have to teach them what exactly you want, what you expect. I mean, you can have all the documentation in the world, but you. Will they learn to talk like you and act like you and will they understand landscaping and so on and so forth.
03:54
Scott Callenius
And the answer to that question is no. But the reality is, if you find somebody that you can trust and that you can work with, you can teach them all of the skills that they may need to know from landscaping perspective. And I've come to realize it's more about the client journey, right? Like, how is the client feel? How are they communicated with? And I think that's really helped our company grow exponentially to the point where, you know, we're heavily in communication. And I think, too, Jack, you know, one of the things that's changing stuff is AI right with that, because now once Gemini, because we're Google, once Gemini learns how to respond, Gemini responds to a lot of our emails. We have to press send or schedule them, but a lot of times it already knows what to say with some minor modifications.
05:30 – What An Executive Assistant Actually Does
04:38
Jack Jostes
I like that. So. So. So you hired Faith. Who? And what does she do for you?
04:43
Scott Callenius
What does she do so Faith is my executive assistant. She pretty much manages all my, she manages my calendar on, allowed to put anything on my calendar without going through her. She reads all my emails before I'm even allowed to send them. She sets up all my appointments, communicates with my clients, manages my inbox. You know, there's been a lot of help. You know, Jack, I went away to Hawaii in the summer for almost two weeks and I talked to her maybe two or three times while I was there. And you know, we had. The company didn't burn down. You know, a lot of things happened during that time. We grew and everything was running smoothly. And I think if I didn't have Faith in position, it would have been a rough trip. Right.
05:27
Scott Callenius
You're going to go with your family, you're spending a lot of money, you want to enjoy yourselves and then you're answering silly emails about, you know, where's a crew or you know, dumb stuff that doesn't really need to be answered today. But people in today's world expect answers immediately.
05:41
Jack Jostes
Yeah, well, so that's amazing. And then what, who is the second assistant and what do they do?
05:45
Scott Callenius
Yeah, so Kesha came on board and Kesha has a background in billing from a medical standpoint. And what we realized during working with Faith is that were spending a lot of time in work order management. So we had built some really good systems behind the scenes with your help with the website.
06:02
Jack Jostes
Right.
06:03
Scott Callenius
That it goes from our website into Zapier and from Zapier it goes to Asana. So we built these systems that are nice for our larger accounts. So stuff's being. But we also needed somebody to manage that and Faith's too busy really to manage that. So we put somebody else in a part time role who can work at her leisure. Her name is Keisha. We love her and, you know, she has become invaluable to us with work order management. She's also now taken on the role of party planner, which is great. So, like she works to figure out what we're going to do for a Christmas party this year. Right. So let's take something off my plate. You know, we do quarterly things with our team, dinners with our managers and stuff. So she handles all of that virtually, which is great.
06:47
Scott Callenius
You know, she's not here in office and you know, she can do all the legwork, like, you know, use a Christmas party. You know, it's like we're trying to do a nice Christmas party this year and it's a It's a challenge, right. Because it's a lot of phone calls, a lot of emails, it's a lot of pricing. It's a lot of things you have to do that I honestly don't really want to do so well.
07:00 – Building Systems With Forms And Automation
07:06
Jack Jostes
Well, how many people work, how many people are going to be at the Christmas party?
07:10
Scott Callenius
About 60. We have 60 employees in the field so we're looking for probably having a party of about 100 because I'm pro kids, so I love the kids to all these things and because I think that adds a lot of value and I want it to be a place that the families come, I want it to be about us.
07:25
Jack Jostes
Well, that's so cool that I love the idea of you having a hundred person Christmas party forever Green. And it is a lot of work. And does Kesha enjoy doing the planning of that sort of thing?
07:37
Scott Callenius
Yeah. I'll let you in a secret, Jack. She planned our trip to Hawaii.
07:41
Jack Jostes
Wow.
07:42
Scott Callenius
Only thing I have to do is pay the bill.
07:45
Jack Jostes
That's, that's phenomenal. So I, I, I asked that because you said you really don't like doing it. And so this is something that I needed to learn was that there are people who will enjoy doing things that you, that are just totally draining to you were draining to me. There, there are people like Aaron is really good at some of those logistical details and yeah, when there's a hundred people coming and the contracts and the space and the date, there's so much back and forth and some people really enjoy supporting you, Scott, to help make that party happen for the hundred people. And so I think it, I think this is a message that business owners in general need to hear.
07:00 – Building Systems With Forms And Automation
08:30
Jack Jostes
And I, I'm, I applaud you for taking action and doing it and hiring people because it is uncomfortable and you do have to trust people and like let them go do it. And it's a really great thing when you find people that work when they, when you enjoy working together in that way, which it sounds like you've found.
08:50
Scott Callenius
Yeah. And I think too, Jack, as owners we have to get away from the financial part of it and start to realize that people have lives and other things that they want to do in their life and need a, around their schedule. You know, these girls will work late into the night, you know, and I see all the emails in the morning that they have scheduled and it's not uncommon for Kesha to be on our system at 2 o' clock in the morning. If that's when she chooses to get on and do work orders and do things like that and schedule emails and stuff, what does it bother me? It doesn't cost me any more, it doesn't cost me any less.
09:18
Scott Callenius
And if that's the time that she feels the best, that she wants to perform, then I feel like, you know, let her do her thing. Right. And we have a team meeting every day at 3:30. She's on there, she gets on, she answers quick, you know, ask questions, so on and so forth, you know. But Chuck, I want to back up for a second. I think the biggest thing is that it's not just jobs that you don't like to do. Maybe it's jobs that you shouldn't be doing as the owner because you are, have to be the cheerleader of your company. You have to be the face that's forward. You need to be available to meet with your team to deal with whatever's going on. I mean, I offloaded accounting last year too, and now I have a, a part time cfo, right.
09:57
Scott Callenius
And now my accounting team, I'm amazing at accounting. I could run all my QuickBooks, pay all my bills, run reports, do all of that stuff. But at the end of the day, is it really worth it for me to spend all my day paying bills and stuff like that when I could be outgrowing the company or meeting with a new client or looking at another thing or handling a situation at work or buying another truck or talking about financing or whatever that looks like? I think my time is better served someplace else.
10:50 – Reclaiming Your Time As The Owner
10:24
Jack Jostes
Yeah, I, I think it is. And I think, you know, the Hawaii thing was just one thing that you did for a couple weeks. I don't think you're going to, you're not going to Hawaii every day. So, so I think that having this support has helped you have some of that free time personally. But also. Yeah, tell me more about some of those other things that, how has it helped you then focus on growing other parts of the business?
10:50
Scott Callenius
Yeah, I mean, look, the biggest thing for me was to kind of step back a little bit and realize that I was working too many hours and the hours that I was working wasn't really efficient. So now I'm gonna kind of move to like a three and a. I, I work Monday till Thursday until lunch and then I'm gone and I go to my other house for the weekend. But what I've noticed is by taking off a half a day on Thursday, all day Friday, Saturday, I come back Sunday and I actually go in my office on Sunday and I really enjoy it because I feel like no one's bothering me. I can work, I can do what I need to do. And then I hit the ground running.
11:25
Scott Callenius
So I'm finding that I'm having more success whittling my schedule down into a shorter window and not being available for everybody at all times. And it forces them to like, squeeze me into their schedule because now I'm as important as them, you know, And I think as owners, we get, we get pulled in different directions. Well, I can't meet Mrs. Smith because Mrs. Smith works and she can only meet me at Saturday at 6 o' clock at night. Well, how was that fair to me? I have a family and I have kids. I mean, yes, they're grown up and you know that, but you know, that doesn't mean that when they were younger that it wasn't more important for me to go to their basketball games or coach their games.
12:00
Scott Callenius
And I think as owners, we have to start realizing, and this is where our faith comes in. Right? This is where an errand comes in that they can time block your schedule. They can give the clients many of times that you can meet. Right. But they don't have to be, you know, a convenient time for you. And I think that works out better because then you're lifting your level of professionalism as well.
14:30 – Using Technology And AI In Daily Operations
12:21
Jack Jostes
Yeah, I, I agree. It, it is. And, and also one of the things that you mentioned that I wanted to unpack a little bit was the work order form that we built together. Because I just remember were together and you were telling me about how you're getting calls, emails, voicemails, texts, with like little bits of information. Because Forever Green focuses on HOA communities. So you might have, you might how? I mean, you probably have what, a thousand homeowners that, who's. Probably thousands. Is it thousands now?
12:58
Scott Callenius
Couple thousand houses at this point now?
13:00
Jack Jostes
Yeah. So I mean, I just remember on the path there, like you were getting hundreds of messages and they would be like, hey, I need help with, I don't know, a tree branch fell on my driveway. And then you'd have to figure out, well, okay, which HOA community is this? Yeah, who's the point of contact at the community? What's their thing? And now, and we had that, a similar experience with Ramblin Jackson with our own clients, where we have hundreds of clients, hundreds of websites, and there's little edits and those are really important that we do them. Well, all those little small things have to be Done well. And so we ended up building a form that we fill out that you know, what client is this? You know, that alone helps standardize.
13:42
Jack Jostes
We basically created a ticketing system and we built that forever Green. And we worked with. You also have another integration person that we worked with. And that system now we direct people to fill out. It's a work order form, it's on your website. It's really easy to find. It's on the top of it. And that system, then once it became too much for you to manage, then Faith did it. And then once it was too much for Faith, now Kesha can do it. So I think you built like not only did you hire some assistance, but you also have built things that support them and allow them to support you. Because I think sometimes people just hire a person. All right, I've got a person and they have no process in place. And then when that person leaves, there goes all the support.
14:33
Jack Jostes
Whereas I think you've built some systems that we have. Great. You've got great people managing for you and that allows both of you some scalability and some flexibility.
14:47
Scott Callenius
Yeah, I think there's a lot there, Jack. I think we'd back up first. Right. So if you think back in time, right, so in 2008 we built this website. I don't remember what year we did elevate but you know, when I met with Robert and we redid the website, then again, you know, we did some tweaks. Nothing crazy, but we did some tweaks. And I think with the help of your team, you know, we've been able to like really get down granular. Like let's, you know, I think we need to back up to the contact form. Right. So like my contact form is pretty tough to get through, but it gets me the leads that I need. Right.
15:21
Scott Callenius
So I'm number one in a lot of the categories and the, and that I need to be thankfully to Random Jackson, your team SEO, you know, the writing, so on and so forth. And we've made adjustments along the way, you know, by scrubbing the website and doing certain things with of your account reps that have helped me throughout the years, you know, but what we've learned is that, you know, you can be more precise of what you're asking for.
15:43
Jack Jostes
Right.
15:43
Scott Callenius
And now it's become a sales tool. Right. So like the work order form, the communities that are self managed or don't have any kind of work order process, they go crazy when I show up. I think I told you this, that this earlier this year we signed a, you know, four or five hundred thousand dollars maintenance account. And one of the number one things was that I could offer them a work order program. Okay. And you know what that work order form cost me? Nothing. Because you built it already, right? All it was okay, when this, when Community X comes in and they put their name with their, you know what I mean, the name of the community, their information that instantly goes into that form.
18:45 – Turning Systems Into Sales Opportunities
16:26
Scott Callenius
And from there, yes, there's some wizardry behind the scenes and then it goes right to an ASAN on a task force. Then inside of that task board, all that has to be adjusted is just to verify that the information is correct and then click it to what crew is going to handle it. So it's very simple management. We lost the guy that you mentioned. His name was Mark. We loved him. Mark had since left our company and, you know, went on to greener pastures. And we're happy for Mark and he's helped us build a lot of stuff. But that system that was built was easy for Kesha to manage. She came in, it took her maybe a couple of weeks, right, of, you know, some back and forth. And how do I manage it now?
17:07
Scott Callenius
She might manage it better than Mark because that's her basically her full time job, right? Like she works at that every day to make sure this is done. And then the follow up, Jack, is even better is that when you can send out a mass email to the property managers, to other people and say, okay, this was done, this was done. So you're closing the loop. And now we're learning that we can also add other people. Like let's say you have an admin that works at said community, we can add the admin and then she or he can readily see all the notes that you are getting, you know, from the field. Hey, we looked at this. This is homeowner responsibility, broken sprinkler head, it's taken care of. The guys trim the bushes, you know, whatever that looks like, right?
17:50
Scott Callenius
And then you can see the notes that are in there. And then it becomes seamless. Now it's not even a matter of us sending a follow up. They can go right in there and look at for themselves and say, oh well look, they've already went to this house. This can't be addressed for this reason or proposals being sent. And then we make notes in that and we have another little board that says pending proposals. So we've kind of built the system out. But if you think about it, Jack, it Started from a simple idea of you and I having a contact form, having other things on our site go to a gravity form, and then from there it sent other places.
18:22
Scott Callenius
And I think that we, we're lost in a world of AI and agents and all this other stuff, and we want AI to do everything. And I think you and I have been building AI before it was popular, because these, that's what this is. It's a system that makes. Takes out the manual stuff. We still need people to review it. We still need people to look at it. We don't have to do the physical manual entering.
21:50 – Where The Landscaping Market Is Headed
18:44
Jack Jostes
Well, I, Yeah, I really see forms, contact forms, as like, the path to so much automation. And yet AI. I don't even think were talking about AI three years ago. One little note. You said, we built your website in 2008. It was 2018.
19:02
Scott Callenius
18.
19:03
Jack Jostes
Just so, just so. We haven't known each other that long, but. But, yeah, 2018. Yeah. I mean, wow. So much has changed in business. But now, yeah, now you can build AI into that, and it could draft the email for you. But, but what you've done is you've created milestones. Kind of like we did with your sales process of, like, all right, I gotta get a lead. I gotta qualify, em. I gotta go visit them. And you. And you literally have, like, boards in asana where you're dragging things, and you can then assign them. And I think that's wonderful because also when Kesha needs a break. Right. If Keisha needs to go to Hawaii maybe.
19:40
Scott Callenius
Right.
19:40
Jack Jostes
Or whatever, you have this system and you have access to all the data. I can't tell you, Scott, that how many people I've met with that. Everything is still literally sticky notes. Or. I, I, I met with an office that was. They were faxing. So they were handwriting, like, notes. No, I'm not BSing you. They were handwriting it and then faxing it so it would go to an email to their salesperson. I'm like, and how long would that take? They're like, oh, usually we get it to them within a couple days of somebody calling the office. And I'm like, what if we built a form that sent all this stuff to this person instantly? And they're like, no way. Yeah. So. So the form, I think, has. I love that, you know, you've. We've taken it out. So, yes, one sales lead generation forms.
20:30
Jack Jostes
But operations, any repeatable step should have a form. We're always thinking at Ramblin Jackson because we have so much Data to keep track of for people. And we're like, whenever we can, we build a form internally to keep track of it and automate things.
20:48
Scott Callenius
Yeah. And I would also say too, Jack, that with that, you know, it's helped in other areas, right? Not just sales, not just all of it. You know, it's become, you know, where now they get a response. And because of your team now, not only is it to say, we got your work order, there's a video of this guy on the return that says, hey, this is Yacht with Forever Green. We're going to get back to you with your work order and stuff like that. And it's just an embedded little video that Jason set up. So it's like you think about some of this stuff where you're starting to get, you know, return. And now people know who I am, you know, even if I'm not the person that's going to come out there, they're going to get a response.
21:27
Scott Callenius
You know what I mean? So it's like, I think these things are little tweaks that help, but you need it. You need somebody to help you do that. And it can't just be, you know, I think as owners we get very like this, you know what I mean? We're just thinking about the next job, the next project. And I'm thinking about, you know, I'm thinking about what 27 is going to look like and what 28 is going to look like, not what I'm doing in 26.
21:49
Jack Jostes
Where. So where are you headed? What are you excited about in the future?
21:53
Scott Callenius
Well, I'm super excited now about moving the company more into enhancement work, higher level enhancement work, much bigger landscape projects than we had done in the past. I think we focused on mostly on HOA and HOA management and, you know, with private equity and a lot of companies being bought up. I think that the changes the market a little bit. And, you know, private equity companies, you know, they're looking for these companies that, you know, are doing 90 to 100% maintenance. So if you're selling to them, you know, they're not looking for any of the landscape projects, right. So and owners that are positioning themselves to sell to them are being, you know, told that this is what you need to do. So I think that they're turning down this other work, right?
22:40
Scott Callenius
They're turning down the tree care, they're turning down the enhancement work, they're turning down the larger scale landscape projects. And what I'm seeing in my market is that there's a lot of draw for that, because now the pool of people that want to do the work and are qualified to do the work are a lot less. You know, where before it was like everybody wants a landscape job, nobody wants to cut grass. But now with private equity being involved in selling and trading businesses like cards, like baseball cards, you know, it's like, you know, you get in the room with the consultants and listen, I've talked to all the top 10 guys and you know, they all want maintenance, maintenance, because they want that reoccurring revenue model. The problem is that it's low margin work. This is nothing.
23:21
Scott Callenius
This is no shock, particularly in my market. So I think if you could go to your clients, upsell them work, or maybe take on new clients that need tremendous amount of redos, that then you can sell the maintenance at a higher number. Because they've invested these, in our case, hundreds of thousands of dollars in landscaping. Now you need to pay a percentage of that to maintain it, instead of them looking at it like, well, I just need my grass mowed and bushes trimmed. Give me the lowest price.
23:52
Jack Jostes
Right.
23:52
Scott Callenius
So we're doing a lot of beach restoration work right now. A lot of all of our buildings in South Florida are going through these four years inspections and, you know, a lot of them are failing. So they're doing concrete restoration projects and things like that. So those big buildings with scaffolding going up and down and with all of that is becoming this new opportunity for us to do like the waterproofing, you know, removing all the debris and stuff like that out of the beds, and then they can get in there and do their projects. And then after that, it's a new landscape. So it's an interesting time to be, you know, in landscaping as far as, you know, what projects are out there to do.
24:29
Scott Callenius
And you have to think a little bit outside the box as far as, you know, what can you sell to, you know, And I think too, we're also dealing with new homeowners. You know, we don't do residential work, but I think I would touch on that a little bit. I think we're going to move more into quiet work and autonomous work. And I think that more, you know, if I was starting, if I was really young and I was starting on to a landscape company, I would look at not just the battery operated equipment, but I would look at ways to not mow anymore. And I would look at ways to have like, you know, those guys with the little robo lawnmowers that mowed the small lots. And I would start to position myself as a leader in my market to do that.
25:07
Scott Callenius
That's not very big down here yet, but I know it's coming. If you go to the Midwest, it's pretty popular. A lot of people had those little lawnmowers, you know, whatever they're called. When I was at gie, there was a lot of companies that are. That offer that I think that you can get a different employee. Right. Because now you can kind of get someone who's tech savvy that wants to do that. You might be a challenge with labor. So you can just use labor to go trim and edge and do things that, you know that. So it's not the mowing part. And I think that technology is changing a lot of stuff. And, you know, we're embracing technology differently here. You know, it's more about the systems and the processes behind the scenes.
25:43
Scott Callenius
And, you know, we run in GPSs and trucks and tracking and stuff like that, so we can be more efficient and be more on the job and looking at investments in equipment that'll make your job faster. But I think each company has to take a step back and look at what they're doing and see if they can do it faster and better. Because the reality is landscaping is getting commoditized. When Amazon and big companies want to get involved, you know, they're disruptors for a reason, Jack. They're not. The old guard is falling. And I'm 55 years old and I know I have to change. You know, you're going to be 40 here. You get your birthday. Is your birthday shortly.
26:00 – Solopreneurs Vs Building A Real Business
26:18
Jack Jostes
It's. Yeah, it's a couple days from now.
26:20
Scott Callenius
Yeah. You know, and it's like, you know, everything's changed in your life. If you think back 10 years ago, what you were doing with rambling to what you're doing today, it's completely different.
26:29
Jack Jostes
Yeah, it is completely different. And yeah, it's interesting to think about, like, what would it be like to start a business 10. Like, I don't know. It would be interesting to start a business now versus having started before. And it's interesting working with really younger people who they had AI while they were in college when they were that young, whereas I didn't. And like, I remember, like, it was a requirement to use email. And that was the. For I was the first year in college where that was a requirement. It was like, this is the official communication of the college.
27:12
Scott Callenius
Yeah.
27:12
Jack Jostes
And that was. That seems like so common now. It is like, how else would they communicate with you? So, but don't you think all of.
27:23
Scott Callenius
It, Jack, has changed? I mean, so you have a lot of solopreneurs. Like, if you look at landscape and you open up Instagram today, you have a lot of solopreneurs, you know, so are they really business owners or are they Instagram influencers who own a small landscape company? I'm not sure to judge either way, but I saw a lot of them walking around Gie, you know, and it's like, I don't think it's good or bad. I just think it's different. You know, I think that it's fine when you're young, but as you age and as you mature, you're going to need other people to do the task within your company because eventually your body is going to wear down, you cannot mow yards your entire life and stay healthy. And it's just the facts of life.
28:01
Scott Callenius
So, you know, at some point, you know, you can maybe make good money and move your career along, but at some point, you have to hire people to do these jobs. So I'm in somewhere in between those, you know, like, I see a lot of these mostly men who, you know, want to tell us what to do and how to grow a business and all this stuff. And I look at that and say, well, you know, have you really been through the trials and tribulations? I mean, you know, hire five people and have four of them leave and see if you can get the same amount of work done. You know, it's, it's a challenge, right?
28:34
Scott Callenius
And I think that's the next step in this industry is like, you know, the guys that are tried and true and the people that have done things and the ones that are up and coming that do use social media to grow their businesses, I think they can do really well, but they have to not just be an influencer part of it. They got to actually grow a real company behind the scenes.
31:00 – Open Book Management And Team Transparency
28:53
Jack Jostes
Well, we. Yeah, so were talking about this on our call, and the one book that comes to mind that changed my life and my whole approach to everything really was the EMETH Revisited.
29:04
Scott Callenius
Great book.
29:04
Jack Jostes
And that book, in a nutshell, if you haven't listened to it or read it, you have to. And there's also the E. Myth, Landscape Contractor with Tony Bass, which is excellent, but they're both, they're both. Those are both great books. But it's about. There's the entrepreneur, the manager and the technician. And when I read that book, I was very much a technician and maybe a reluctant manager because I, I had never, when I started my own company, I hadn't really had many jobs. Like, I, I worked at a dairy farm for less than a year, and I had other jobs that were, they were just jobs that were part time or shorter than a year.
29:48
Jack Jostes
And I think what you're talking about, though, is like the choice to become a manager and then to become an entrepreneur, maybe that hires managers is what you're talking about of building a business that's built on systems. This whole, this whole work order system. Like, that's how like that book changed how I think of things, is like, all right, well, how can this kind of chaotic experience for Scott become a little system that creates freedom for him? And that's how I think about, really everything in business is kind of through that lens. I don't, I, I know that many people do not enjoy thinking that way, and I've worked with some of them and I've had pretty serious business relationships with people who, they realize I don't want to become the manager. I don't want to be an entrepreneur.
30:39
Jack Jostes
I don't like the stress of having five employees and four of them leaving and having to figure out payroll tax and all this business stuff. And they're also pretty happy, though, being a technician, you know, but also, but they're also, to your point, they're not in a physically demanding trade like landscaping or lawn mowing.
31:04
Scott Callenius
Right.
31:04
Jack Jostes
As they approach 60. Right. So I think that's a, I think that's. Yeah, it's just wise, I guess, for you to say it. And what. From my experience, and that's the reason why most people aren't long term entrepreneurs. Like, you have to be kind of crazy to do it in a way. You have to enjoy the risk of it. You have to be like, ooh, these four people might quit. And I'm gonna be damned if they do. And I'm gonna be stronger and make money out of it somehow.
31:36
Scott Callenius
Right. Like you have, I think, Jack, that's a big thing. Right. I think that's a huge thing, is that most people that start in business are risk averse.
31:42
Jack Jostes
Yes.
31:43
Scott Callenius
They're not really ready for the risk. You know, when you tell somebody like, you know, two weeks ago we had three trucks just delivered here, and, you know, one or two are in the field and the other ones are going to come out later on and you know, to make a 150 or whatever thousand dollar investment it is in that, you know, you have to be prepared for that.
32:00
Jack Jostes
Right?
32:00
Scott Callenius
And, and you have to be able to go, okay, well I, I can sleep at night and I know that I have growth and I have a plan and these things are in place. And your. Not everybody's built for that.
32:10
Jack Jostes
Well, well, I mean, so how much of that is just innate? Like, how much of that was like Scott and Jack were just born or had certain life experience? And I don't expect you to know the answer to this. I'm more just curious of like, how do some people have it and some people don't. Like my parents, for instance, they're like, we would have never done what you do. We can't imagine having the stress of all the employees and the overhead and all this stuff. And I'm also like, but if you didn't do what you did, I, I probably wouldn't have been this way. So it was part of just the experience of where I'm at in my family in some ways that I think.
32:51
Scott Callenius
There's a lot of, I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think when I look at my own mother, same thing. My mom's risk averse, you know, she thinks that you should work for a job for 30 or 40 years and get the pension and go home and retire and you know what I mean? And then you look back and you're 80 years old and it's like, okay, well, I had a career for 40 years and what do I have after that? You know, I have some money, I have some security, but I don't think you and I are wired that way, Jack. I think you and I look at it more like, you know, it's so much fun to see our team win. It's so much fun to see Ramblin Jackson expand.
33:20
Scott Callenius
It's so much fun for you to take off time and go be able to go to the mountains and hang out with your kids. Right. And realize that the bills are paid, things are happening and the business is growing. But yet you're out elk hunting, right? So for me, I feel like it's the same thing. I get more excitement watching my team win or handing them a new set of keys to a brand new truck or new trailer, or taking them out to dinner and seeing them and their kids and their families. And, you know, one of my leaders got married two weeks ago. And I was there for that. And I mean, those types of things are irreplaceable in my opinion.
33:51
Jack Jostes
Right.
33:52
Scott Callenius
Like leadership. And as an owner of a company,
33:54
Jack Jostes
I agree those really are the more motivating and rewarding things. And yes, I do like making more money. Yes, yes, of course I do. But it wouldn't be the only thing that would be enough to want to do what I do. So, yeah, I, I enjoy seeing other people. I've been fortunate. I have some people who've worked with me for nine years and to have that type of work relationship with them, see what they're doing. They help me, I'm helping them. I've seen people get married or have kids or buy their first house or all sorts of really major life events that I also got to experience as a result or that my business contributed to. It is rewarding. So I'm just curious. So, so back to the.
36:00 – Scaling Challenges And Financial Complexity
34:42
Jack Jostes
You're talking about the kind of the law entrepreneur, the solo owner, operator, lawn company that's also making social content. I'm like, right on. Every time I see these people, I'm like, in some ways I'm like, where else in the world could you do this? Like, where else in the world could you start a lawn care company from nothing and grow it to, you know, a $200,000 enterprise or in some cases a multimillion dollar thing?
35:16
Scott Callenius
I mean, look, I like it too, Jack, I do. I just, I think my advice to them would be to make sure that you have a longer term plan and that you are actually adding more to society and you're not just telling people what they want to hear for clicks. You know, that's what's a little concerning for me is that I go on and I see some of the comments and some of the people that are saying certain things. As somebody who's grown a business for almost 40 years, you know, I've started doing this when I was like 15 years old, younger, that there are a lot of pitfalls to things. And I don't necessarily always agree with their comments. Like I'm not against buying used equipment, I'm not against having a used truck. I'm not against starting.
35:58
Scott Callenius
I mean, if you see my first truck and the first thing that I've ever did, it wasn't perfect. It wasn't about being perfect. But I do think at some point you have to start making sure that the information that you are giving out is truthful and that it's not just four more clicks, you know, because to say to somebody, hey, you can go get a lawnmower and get a truck and do this and make a couple thousand dollars a week. Well, maybe you can at a short, you know what I mean, In a short duration. But eventually you start to outgrowing your facilities, your trucks wear out, your equipment wears out. Are you building a nest egg to replace that or you take financing? You know, there's a lot of things as a business owner, Jack, that we have to deal with.
36:38
Scott Callenius
Taxes, employees, you know, health care. I mean, there's a lot of things to think. So I understand the idea of staying small. Sometimes I think to myself, why did I, maybe I should just go back to 25 guys. I'd probably make more money. But the reality is that, you know, to see my young ladies and the girls and the guys that work for me, to go from, you know, entry level, you know, employee to now running a crew and to see them celebrating birthdays and to celebrate all that stuff, I wouldn't replace that for money, but also want to talk to you about that too, is a lot of people are ashamed to tell people what they make. You know what I mean?
37:14
Scott Callenius
And that they think that they can't tell their team, hey, I make six figure income or I make a quarter of a million a year or whatever that is. If you're not open with them and tell them what, why would they want, why wouldn't they want to celebrate you? As long as you're giving them all the tools and all the things that they need and you're giving them raises and you're doing all this stuff along the way, why wouldn't they celebrate those wins with you?
37:39
Jack Jostes
Right?
37:40
Scott Callenius
Like instead of us always hiding everything and thinking, I can't tell Sally how much my paycheck is and how much this is and that is, you know, I, I think that's wrong. You know, I mean, as a matter of fact, you know, we're going to be starting quarterly meetings with the entire team, with a management team where we're going to open up all the books and we're going to show everybody. My accountant team's going to run it and they're going to explain to everybody, this is the money that comes in, these are the bills, this is the responsibility, all the things. Yes, it's going to be higher level, it's not going to be granular down to every penny. But I think people need to know, you know, when do you make money in a landscape business? When do you not make money?
38:18
Scott Callenius
When do you have cash burn. When do you need to make investments? I think we have to be more open, transparent.
38:23
Jack Jostes
I've been open book management the whole time, and what I found is that, well, and I, no, I wasn't in the beginning. And then I really, I had a lot of debt. I had a problem, a lot of problems that I, I kept secret. And then once I let people know, they're like, oh, well, thanks for telling me that all these clients owe us money. Like, I had an accounts receivable problem. And it was. Once I let people know, they're like, oh, well, we should stop working for them. Yeah, we should.
38:56
Scott Callenius
We.
38:57
Jack Jostes
They need to pay us. And I'm like, yeah, they do. And then it was so much that I couldn't contact everyone. So then I actually, I have a, what I call the entrepreneurial pay plan. So I'm open book about our net profit. And when it's above a certain amount, I have a bonus pool that gets paid out. And it's based on if you've been here for over a year, then you get access to this bonus pool. And when it's above a certain percentage amount, the percentage gets even higher. And so then people are like, wow, that ended up being a lot. Or there have also been quarters, Scott, where it hasn't been paid. And I've been able. Just because I'm open book about when it's good. When I'm open book about, hey, here's why we didn't make it this time, people.
39:43
Jack Jostes
I found the right people feel trusted, they feel valued with it. Some people feel resentful about it. They say, well, I thought were all going to get this bonus. And it's like, well, the company, you know, as a result of these things didn't make it. Or, and so some, some people have responded toxic in a toxic way, Scott. Some people that are not a fit, that are, I'm glad are gone. People that I sleep a lot better now that they're not here. But then the people who have been here for five, six, seven, eight, nine years are like, oh, well, how are we going to fix that? I have an idea. Or I didn't realize were paying for this software anymore. We can, we could eliminate that. So I'm with you on it.
40:27
Jack Jostes
And I think there's a lot of education that goes along with it, though. Like, I mean, I had somebody who was really resentful with me, didn't understand at a basic level the difference between gross Profit and net profit, and our bonus is based on net profit. And they, they were really upset about that and they just didn't get it. And they invented this whole narrative and started telling people I was taking advantage of them. And luckily the other people knew enough to be like, dude, you don't actually know what you're talking about. Here's how net profit works, because we've been here for years and we've heard this every quarter kind of thing. So kind of a rant there, but I'm with.
41:12
Scott Callenius
I love that, Jack. And we're. That's one of the things, you know, I'll probably talk to you off that offline as we work through that, because that's some of the challenges we're running into now. So we're, you know, we're baby stepping into that. So that way, you know, I want to get everybody on board. We're, you know, this was a year that we had more employees, so now we have to be ACA compliant. So we've had to offer health care. And that's been a challenge onboarding that. And we're going to expand on that going into next year. And, you know, there's a cost associated with that.
41:40
Scott Callenius
And you know, we're taking into all the things you just said, like some of our people need to be compensated on gross profit is because some of them don't have any control over the overhead of the company. Right. So those areas where your company. You do. You know what I mean? Like.
41:54
Jack Jostes
Right.
41:55
Scott Callenius
You don't.
41:56
Jack Jostes
Well, and I do have a bonus, a different one that is based on gross profit.
42:00
Scott Callenius
Yes.
42:01
Jack Jostes
So I, I have both. But, but they. The distinction between the. I guess so it's like part of it's being patient and people. And, and then some people just aren't team players is really what it comes down to.
42:15
Scott Callenius
And I'm fine with that, Jack. Personally, I'd rather the team players off the boat or off the ship. The one, the non team players, I'd rather have them off the ship as fast as possible. And if that's the case, that's fine with me. You know, you're just not fit for here. I have no problem, you know, letting you go because.
42:32
Jack Jostes
Yeah, I think, I think it's important. Yeah. I mean, because somebody may not have an impact on how many trucks did the company buy or what. What was this other. How much does Keisha cost? I don't know, but they could control how much time the crew is spending on a certain job and they should be compensated for that. So I'm with you on that. I think there's lots of different layers to it and I think that, that's a kind of a moving target in some ways of like knowing which parts of your business, what behaviors do you want to incentivize and what are your targets and then how do they change now that you're at over 50 employees? Like for me having, I have clients in 28 states and we have to do tax returns in some of them.
43:27
Jack Jostes
And it, and it, and it varies by state of how much revenue are you doing. And it's like extremely complicated. And then even figuring it out, I have to hire somebody and that costs money. And so I don't know, like you keep getting to the next level and then it's like, wow, here's this whole additional level of financial work that needs to be done. And even doing the work to figure out the tax has a big expense.
41:30 – Remote Teams And Virtual Assistants In Landscaping
43:57
Scott Callenius
Yes. And you know, we're even looking at corporate structure now. Like I never thought in a million years I'd be sitting here talking about corporate structure and what are you, an S corp or this corp or that corp, you know, so now the conversations are, well, if you're going to make these investments, then maybe you need to switch some other, you know, corporate structure because tax laws change and so on and so forth. And these are all, you know, higher level things to discuss. And it's great to be able to have the opportunity to talk to somebody as a professional that's leading your company to put you in the right spot. But well, you know, to your point, it's a decision.
44:30
Jack Jostes
Well, it is. And then I think that in order to have the bandwidth to even like show up to that meeting and then comprehend what these people just talked about, you have to have space in your calendar to do that. And that's just one of the things that I realized as I grew was like, oh wow, like we're doing a lot of revenue, there's a lot of expenses, there's all this state different multi state complexity. And if I didn't have the support of the systems and the people, I couldn't do it. But I also, I like it. So I don't know about you, but I find that like I kind of enjoy like part of me is like, oh damn, I have to pay this tax. And then part of me is like, it's like a fun puzzle that I'm figuring out.
45:15
Jack Jostes
And then we have different, like, wizards that we hire who are like, I don't know, like we hired a new CPA and like, wow, this dude's level of wizardry. Like, I don't want to read about all these changes in the way that he does. I want to hire him so he can tell me what to do.
45:34
Scott Callenius
Yeah, and it's funny you say that, Jack, because, like, I have meetings, obviously, a lot of stand in meetings every week. And one of my favorite meetings is meeting with my accounting team every Wednesday at 1 o', clock, you know, because it's like we're going to talk about the payroll and this and that and the bills and the stuff. And here's the thing, the greatest part of the meeting is I don't have to do anything. I mean, I used to just be me. Now I get on there and I got a team of three or four and they're telling us, you know, okay, this is where we're at. This is what's coming in. This is what we need to do. And there was another reason for Kesha, by the way. Keisha is also our collector.
46:05
Scott Callenius
So when we had accounts receivable issues too, we put her on that. And what I think, just to back up real quick, one of the things that's nice about having somebody else do collections for you is they take, you take the personal part of it out because now they're doing collections for Ramblin or forever Green as opposed to Jack calling up and being like, hey, you know, hey, Scott, you know, you didn't pay your bill, right?
46:26
Jack Jostes
Like, or something.
46:28
Scott Callenius
You know, like we've had hiccups before. Like we've changed credit cards with you guys and we get an email from you and it's like, hey, you know, your charge didn't go through. Oh, whoops, sorry. You know, we don't, we're not using that card anymore or whatever, so we need to change it or however, you know, the things happen.
46:41
Jack Jostes
Yeah, well, and I think, you know, back to the, you know, you're talking about the people who are starting out and they, they're kind of, I think there's a fear of getting to the level maybe that you're at, that I don't know how to do all of this advanced financial stuff.
46:58
Scott Callenius
Right?
46:58
Jack Jostes
Or I don't know how to do all this health care stuff. And I think it all, it partly comes down to scaling at all. You're going to have to hire and trust other people. It doesn't mean that you're like unaware of what's going on or that you're not going to need to learn new things. But I think part of it comes down to can you hire people? Can't, can you hire and trust people? And, and I just, you know, some people can't. And I guess is what I was saying is that some people are, they can't or they won't and there's plenty of market for that. Some of the projects that we're turning down through your website or that you're politely declining, somebody else would gladly do.
47:43
Scott Callenius
Yeah, yeah. I think it's just fear. It's fear, Jack. You know what I mean? They have fear. And you know, because I'm, you know, I get invited to a lot of groups, you know, a lot of group settings, particularly on Facebook and places like that, and they want to get your input and stuff. And you know, I, I go on many of them and I get involved and then usually I end up leaving those groups pretty quickly because I find that there's just so much fear in there. A sense of like, well, you know, I, I can't hire a full time guy because I might only need them two days a week or three days a week and what do I do with them on, per day?
48:15
Scott Callenius
And you know, and I, I, I get bogged down in that in a sense, like, because I just don't think like that. I think to myself, well, if I had a guy and I only had three days of work with him, the other two days I'd have him butterflying and flyers, I'd have him fixing equipment. I would do something else with that time that would get a better ROI as opposed to like, well, I just going to send them home and not pay him. So I think that's where the challenge becomes, is that they don't have enough work. And I'd also say too, another thing on this solopreneur thing is a lot of people have other jobs, Jack. And I don't think, you know, I think your plan A and your plan B and your plan C was what you're doing right now.
48:51
Scott Callenius
I don't think there was, you know, Jack didn't work someplace else and then have, you weren't working at the dairy farm saying that could be a career. And then I went on the side, I'm doing website development. I think you were all in on website development and that's where you were going to be.
49:08
Jack Jostes
It is. That's True. I went all in. And I'm glad that I did. I didn't really have much to lose. I had a lot of debt. So it was kind of like, you know, like, I don't know, it was easier to start that way in some ways than to say, oh, I'm gonna go. But also, I don't know, sometimes people have a job and then they. They start a business with that much head start. So I don't want to knock that.
49:37
Scott Callenius
But you know what some of your greatest years were? That was. That was in that shed in the. Behind your house where you started everything.
49:43
Jack Jostes
That's right.
49:44
Scott Callenius
Because you created a lot of. A lot of content, and you created a lot of things, and you helped a lot of people in those days. And think about what you've done now. Don't forget those.
49:54
Jack Jostes
Well, yeah, no, I'm. I. And before that, before the shed, I. I started in an attic. I had. I had a laptop, and I actually, you know, it's amazing. I remember I bought a desk at Goodwill for $25, and the desk had a, like, Goodwill $25 price tag on it that I couldn't get off. So it was like, just there. But it was like, all right, I've got a laptop and a 25 desk in a. And it wasn't even a full attic. It was like. It was like, I don't know, this, like, lofted part of this house that I was renting, and I worked out of, like, coffee shops. And then I was like, oh, I gotta get an office. So I started renting an office, and it's. It's been quite a journey to.
50:39
Scott Callenius
Now you have an amazing studio.
50:41
Jack Jostes
I do, I do. And. And I never. Well, part of. I dreamed about owning commercial real estate was part of what I knew I wanted. I, I. Back in, even the milk truck. I remember listening to Robert Kiyosaki, rich dad, Poor dad. And I was like, all right, I need to save up and buy. And I. At this time, I thought, I'm going to have a commercial property. Everyone at Ramblin Jackson is going to work there. It's going to be a barn. We're going to renovate it. I, like, this is really what I thought I wanted. And I don't know, I'm really glad that I didn't end up with that. Commercial real estate's really struggling right now, and I did buy a commercial property in the sense that I work out of, but it's like a house. So.
51:26
Scott Callenius
Yeah, Jack, I think that's a good point though too, if you think about some of that stuff. I've taken a lot of advice from you over the years where I have a virtual office. You know, it's unheard of in landscaping to have multiple people working for you that work from their own to their own confines, basically their own home. I think it makes it even better because people are allowed to if they don't want to travel, if they don't want, you know, it's like it opens up more opportunities. And I learned a lot of that from you because dealing with your account reps and other people, you know, as going through the process of building for sites and stuff, that you have a great team, but they're not all centrally located in one spot. You know what I mean?
52:03
Scott Callenius
And it's great that you get different perspectives too from where they may live and what's going on in their environment. And I think that really adds to the overall business as opposed to just having everybody working in the same single spot all the time.
52:18
Jack Jostes
I, I see it as a growing trend. I, I have a client in Michigan whose full time salesperson works entirely remote from Florida. Now in this case, this person worked there for like five years and so they have five years of relationship and trust and like results. You know, this lady can sell, but she does it remotely and even outsells the in person people, believe it or not. And, and part of it is because, and I agree with you that you need to have boundaries and you shouldn't be saying, well I'm going to meet with you at 6pm because that's when you're available. And right at her phase of life she's like, yeah, I can do that. So, so she does meet with people on Zoom sometimes at 6pm and it works.
53:06
Scott Callenius
Right.
53:06
Jack Jostes
And, and it's, but at this season of life that makes sense for her. And so yeah, I, I think the whole remote work thing is fascinating. I even have a client who has two virtual assistants in the Philippines and one of them does all of his bookkeeping.
53:24
Scott Callenius
Yeah.
53:24
Jack Jostes
And for sure you can get a lot done. I don't know, it, it's easier to me running a fully remote company than when I had a part in person company and a half of my team was remote company.
53:40
Scott Callenius
Yeah, I think Jack, you deal with a lot less drama that way. You might have something, you know, you don't have a lot of like inner office arguments and fighting because people aren't seeing each other on the daily basis. They've got space between them and well, maybe.
53:53
Jack Jostes
But I also think that sometimes being in person would have an advantage to that. Like, maybe we. Maybe we need to go out for lunch.
54:01
Scott Callenius
Right.
54:02
Jack Jostes
Maybe we need. Maybe we need to, like, go mini golfing or do something dumb together. Like, so. So I think that maybe there's more of that drama, but in some ways, it's hard. You have to deal with it in a different way remotely. And I don't know, I like it. I think there's pros and cons to both. But I'm just commenting that I see a lot of smart landscape company owners like you that have virtual assistants or remote team members, and they've scaled by doing that.
54:39
Scott Callenius
Yeah. Because people don't ask. People don't ask to see Faith, you know, but here's the funny thing is, like, we've been doing a lot of these shows, like condo shows and stuff, and they all come. They all come from wherever they are. Like, Keisha lives on the west coast, so she comes in and, you know, and it's great. Like, we all get together, we go to dinner, we do those kinds of things. And if it's, like, on a quarterly basis, I think it means a lot. You know, you take everybody out to dinner, you get everybody together, and I think that builds. You know, that builds the team, too, because they are seeing them.
55:05
Scott Callenius
You know, I know you do that by bringing everybody out to Colorado at certain times of the year and, you know, everybody getting together or maybe you meet someplace else now because, you know, the team's kind of spread out.
55:13
Jack Jostes
Yeah.
55:14
Scott Callenius
Traveling as opposed to them coming to see you.
55:17
Jack Jostes
Yeah, definitely. And that I love those times. Well, Scott, we could talk all day, but we've. We've got to wrap up. So for folks listening who may want to, like, check out your website or connect with you on social media or email, I know you like networking with people. How. How can people hit me up anywhere?
55:35
Scott Callenius
I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, I'm on LinkedIn. And check out forevergreenlandscaper.com and see what Jack and his team built for us. And listen, you know, if you ever have any questions about websites and building and what Jack's done for me, please reach out. I'm happy to support you, Jack, in any way I can.
55:52
Jack Jostes
I really appreciate that, Scott, and always a pleasure to talk with you. And, you know, keep. Keep doing great stuff, man. It's. It's an awesome experience working with you and seeing you continue to grow.
56:05
Scott Callenius
Thanks, Jack. We got to get together next time you come south or I go west. We got to, we got to catch up and let's do that.
56:12
Jack Jostes
All right, Scott. Take care, man.
56:14
Scott Callenius
All right. Bye.
56:15
Jack Jostes
Bye, bye. Hey, it's Jack. And if you enjoyed today's episode of the Landscapers Guide podcast, make sure you check out Scott's website, forevergreenlandscaper.com to see some of the work that me and my team at Ramblin Jackson did for Scott. And if you're curious about where to get started with your landscape company, sales and marketing, or if you want to learn more about integration, some of the things that we talked about with Scott, like work orders and integrating with different softwares, we'd love to have a 15 minute marketing brainstorm call with you. On this call, we're going to talk about who is your hel. Yes. Customer. What are you doing for marketing to generate leads and ultimately how is it supporting your sales? We'll give you ideas and if it makes sense, we can have a longer conversation after that about potentially working together.
57:04
Jack Jostes
So book your 15 minute marketing brainstorm at landscapersguide.com/brainstorm/ see our show notes for the links I mentioned, including that one. And my name is Jack Jostes. Thanks for checking out today's podcast and I look forward to talking with you next week on the Landscaper's Guide.