There's that old adage, "The customer is always right." But in today's interview, one of my clients surprised me. He's been in business for 30 years and shares why the customer isn't always right and what his perspective on it is. In this interview, Scott shares how he's invested in developing and really living his company core values, and why that's been a key piece, not only to his company growth, but also in helping employees who weren't the right fit for the company, weed themselves out.
Scott shares a lot of nuggets on leadership, including how he's grown from just being the owner of the company to the visionary that the company really needs him to be as a leader, and why he closed the residential division of his company and now strictly focuses on HOAs. And how one of his new commercial property manager clients thoroughly investigated him online before hiring him, and why he's seeing this big shift in how commercial property manager and commercial clients in general are buying and how he's adapting his marketing to the new trends.
Over the last couple years, Scott has invested a lot of time, money, energy, and resources in personal development, coaching, and other things. So he talks about that, including the shocking results of an anonymous SWOT analysis he did with his employees and how you can do the same thing with simple blank note cards. Today's episode has a ton of value for leadership, sales and marketing. So let's get into it.
Hey, it's Jack Jostes, and welcome to The Landscaper's Guide. Today's episode shares a ton of business value that any landscape company would benefit from, and it goes into some commercial specific information that's just a taste of what I'll be presenting at The Landscaper's Guide to commercial sales and marketing, which is a paid virtual event coming up on Thursday, April 21st. So if you're a commercial landscape company, I hope you check that out at landscapersguide.com/events, or see our show notes for a link. And if you're listening and maybe you don't do commercial, send this episode to somebody who does so they can learn about that exciting event. Now, let's dive into the interview with Scott Scott Callenius.
All right, everyone. Welcome to today's episode of The Landscaper's Guide. I'm excited to have somebody have gotten to know over the last couple years, partly as a client at Ramblin Jackson, but we've developed a friendship too. We have Scott Callenius, he's the President of ForeverGreen Landscape Services, which is a multimillion dollar commercial landscape company focusing on HOAs in West Palm Beach, Florida. Scott has been in business for over 30 years, and he's doing a lot of exciting things today. We're going to talk about leadership. We're going to talk about sales. But first Scott, I wanted to welcome you to the show and say, on your LinkedIn profile, it says that you're "leading landscape warriors into battle." Love that. Tell us, what does that mean?
Scott Callenius:
Well, Jack first, thanks for inviting me back on the podcast. Super excited to be here. What do I consider that is that my guys go out every day, they battle the environment, they battle their clients, they battle their properties. And I consider myself a leader of my team. It's very important that my team steps up, does the right job, and fulfills our contracts, but also I want them to enjoy it. And I want them to understand that it's important that we do a good job, but it's also important that we do it together. We do it as a team. And I want them to know that I'm a lead that's behind them. And I put them ,their needs, their wants, their requirements in front of sometimes even our clients. Sometimes, I'll go to our clients and I'll tell them, "Hey, look, what you're asking is just something that's not going to happen." And over time, that's built up a lot of credibility with my team, because they know that I'm there for them.
Jack Jostes:
So one person I follow is , and he had a good quote was, "The client is always right, as long as you want their money."
Scott Callenius:
Wow. That's a great.
Jack Jostes:
Because the client is right to an extent if you want to work with them. But I think what you're talking about is creating boundaries with people. And I know from working with you over the last couple years, you've become more assertive in your sales on the front end, where you're talking with people about what you can and can't, or will and will not do. So tell me a little bit about that. Leaning into that, how do you approach sales differently now?
Is The Customer Always Right?
Scott Callenius:
Well, I used to go to my accounts and I felt like I needed to get this job. And it was important for us, because we wanted this contract or whatever we might look at. But now, I realize it's more important that they're a good fit. It's also, can we provide the service that they're asking for? Does the budget allow us to perform at the level that they're asking? But more importantly, a lot of times in a conversation with board members or property managers, you'll find out, "Hey, maybe this property is really tough to work for, because they have these high expectations, but they don't have the budget to meet that." So there's many times that we go to appointments and I'll just bow out gracefully and say, "Hey, look we would love to help you, but you have these expectations that are a lot higher than really what your budget can afford."
Now, we need to figure out, "Hey, we would love to work with you, but what's going to give here? You either going to get topnotch service, but it's going to cost you. Or we can give you really good service for the price or the budget that you have. But it has to be a give and take." You can't ask, ask, ask but then have a low budget and expect our team to perform. Because what's happening is they just have more and more requests, Jack. They just keep piling it on and piling it on and piling it on, and think, "Oh, well, whatever we request you'll do." So over the years we've really trained our staff that, "Hey, look. This is what our job specs are. This is what we're required to do. This is what our contract says. Let's meet those standards. Let's exceed them."
Because one of our core values is we refuse to be average. That we don't want to be average, but at the same token, we know that we can't make everybody happy, Jack. I also train my staff to think, "Hey, not every homeowner in every neighborhood is going to be happy with your service. It's impossible." We need to take care of 300, 400 houses in one neighborhood. I'm never going to make 400 homeowners happy. It's impossible. But if I can make 95% of them happy, I feel like we've done a really good job.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah, definitely. And tell me more about core values. I know that you've been in business for 30 years. You've had a team for a while. And recently, you've been on a personal development kick, reading books and you've invested in business coaching. And I know that part of that has been a focus on core values. Scott came out to the Ramblin Jackson's Studio in Colorado recently. It was awesome. One of the videos, the recruiting video, was about core values. So tell us about, what are core values and why are you focusing on them now? And then what are some of the results of that?
How Core Values Have Strengthened the Company While Weeding Out Employees Who Weren’t a Good Fit
Scott Callenius:
Yeah, so I feel like the last two years, as you said, I went on a self development tour, I guess. I had coaches, I've always had personal development coaches and people, business coaches to help me, but none of them have really brought up core values or any of these kind of things. So I started reading more books. I read Traction, I've read Rocket Fuel, I've read several others that are in the same line. And what I started to realize was that we need to have these set of values. I had my own personal core values, but I never implemented them into the business, certain things that I lived by. And I thought to myself, "Hey, if we implement these same kind of things that I live by into the company and just maybe change up a couple things to be more general for the team, that we could live by these standards."
It's not easy. So we had a meeting, we discussed it. I used my team as examples. So on my social media, I will highlight one of our employees, how they exude those core values. We do it in our team huddles in the morning, certain things. And I think it's as we keep bringing up core values, bringing up expectations, what's happening is their level of service is excelling, because they're all excelling. And also too Jack, with that, it's also what way to weed out some of the employees that maybe aren't good fits for your company. So we've lost several employees. And the thing is, I used to be afraid to let anybody go. Because I always need them. We're in a tight labor market, everybody's looking for employees, everyone's looking to recruit, everyone's coming.
"Oh, how can I get people to come to work for me? How can I do this? How can I do that?" And what I found is the more I give to my employees, the more I pour into them, the more we talk about core values and expectations, that they keep bringing me quality people. And then they almost vet the employees we have. And they'll come to us and say, "Hey, this particular individual doesn't fit our mold of a good employee." And then you have to have an uncomfortable conversation with them about, "Hey, is this really a career path for you?" If your employees feel great, every morning, they get up, they have their name on their shirt. They have a logo on their shirt. It's clean. They look great. They're tucked in. They're ready to go.
So when my team arrives at your job or at your property, my team looks ready to go. They look like landscapers, look like they're ready to perform. That really means more to me than anything, because the reality is that they're an extension of the leader. So if I'm a poor leader, I'm going to have poor employees. And if I treat my employees poorly, they're not going to treat our clients well. And that's the big thing for me.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah, absolutely. And I know as you grow, you really are working on building people up so you can continue expanding, and you can't do everything. And part of this, and I know I've had this challenge too, is in order to let people grow and create an environment for them to grow, you do need to give up some of the control over some of the things that maybe you used to personally do. And it's hard. So I wanted to hear about growing from more of just an owner into the leader, and what does that mean to you and maybe, I don't know, what are some things that you've realized that you used to do that you don't do anymore?
Scott Callenius:
Well, I would say of the biggest thing for me personally, was I was a micromanager. And I think a lot of people that start in this industry, we are, because we feel like we can do everything ourselves and we can do it better than the next person. And we also feel like, "Hey, if I'm not there, then the job doesn't get done." And so on and so forth. But what I've learned is if I step back and I let my team go out and do their tasks, and if they make a mistake, they make a mistake. But the reality is that they make less and less mistakes. I find when I was micromanaging my crews, we made more mistakes because they weren't making decisions for themselves. They were relying on me to make the decision. So it was a text message. It was a phone call. It was whatever.
So again, I drove, I flew out to Colorado during the week to film videos with you. Awesome experience. I wasn't stressed out while I was there. I mean, yeah. I had to get in front of the camera, but I mean, I wasn't stressed out about my team's performance back in Florida. They weren't calling me. You were with me. My phone was not blowing up. There was no emergencies happening. Did I get an email? Do I get a text message? Of course. But I wasn't I wasn't stressed out about being Colorado for two or three days to do what needed to be done for the business. But I had to set those expectations with the team prior. Like, "Hey, this is what's going on. This is what you need to do."
And I feel like the more that I've stepped back and turned more into the visionary role, more of the leadership role, that everybody, all my team has all stepped up, Jack. I go to them and I say, "Hey, here's an index card, write three things on it that you think would make it better to work at ForeverGreen." And I tell them, I don't want their names on them unless they want to. I want them to be open. I want them to give me their personal feedback. That's something else as a leader. Jack, you have to be able to take that criticism and not take it personally, because the reality is that if you don't get that information from one person, how are you going to know how to build your team?
Maybe there's something I do. I'll give you an example. So we did the SWOT analysis and I always thought that I was a good communicator. I had several people write in their analysis that they thought one of the weaknesses was the communication. So I sat down with everybody at one of our morning huddles and I said, "Okay. So tell me where I'm lacking in communication. What do we need to do? How can I communicate better with you? What do you need to know?" And what I realized was I am communicating with them. I just wasn't giving them some of the information that they wanted. Jack, you're involved with the industry collective. So that's another thing. By us doing these packing events, whatever you want to call, the team buys in, they're all together. You get photographers.
Yeah. It's great for marketing. It's great for sales, but it does more for their morale to see us pack 100 backpacks, to see us pack hygiene package, to see us give away food for the holidays. To see all that stuff, it builds them up. And then that helps bring in more team, more staff. Because the employees look around and they're like, "Hey, you want to join a really winning team, a good team? Come over here and work with us. This is what we do. We don't just work and collect a paycheck. We're giving back to society. We get uniforms. Scott bought us clippers. He's asking us what we can do to help."
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. So you're getting feedback. You're working with people. One of the things that we talked about while we were out on a walk in Colorado was... Or maybe it was over barbecue. I don't know. But we were talking about the shift of from thinking of laborers to frontline workers. And I don't know that it was necessarily you that came up with it. I think maybe you saw it from, is it Josh Gamez?
Scott Callenius:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Josh.
Jack Jostes:
But yeah. And Josh is doing amazing things. Tell us a little bit about frontline workers versus laborers. What does that mean? And how do you think of your people differently?
Are Landscape Employees “Laborers” or “Frontline Workers?”
Scott Callenius:
Yeah, I think that the old mentality of having just a laborer was just a guy a girl who just worked and just did menial task chores. And I don't look at it that way. When I look at that, I make an investment in my frontline. My frontline is me. I've taken a approach of leading from the behind, leading from behind instead of leading out front. Because I want to help all of my team excel at all of their tasks. So if I can be behind them, helping them, coaching them, figuring out what they need, their life will be better. But also, their performance in the field will be better. So I look at it more like they're frontline workers, because they are our frontline. They're the people that are out seeing my client, seeing other places. My employees rarely walk in my office and demand a raise.
They never do that. Why? Because I'm willing to give them a raise on their performance. What their doing, how are you helping? And it's not just a task. It's not just, "Oh, he knows how to use an edger today and a hedge trimmer tomorrow." No. It's, "How did you interact with a homeowner? How did you diffuse the situation? Did you take care of whatever the job may be? Did a homeowner come out and how did you help them in their time of need?" Because reality is, I can't be everywhere, Jack. So I have to have really good staff who, if your wife or you walked out of your house and there was landscapers working in your front yard, you would want them to be pleasant.
You would want them to smile. You would want them to say "Hello" or "Good morning," or pull the trash can in, or pick up the debris in the yard. The real simple things. But I see every day, guys that look unhappy at their job. They look like they're just out there doing it because they need a paycheck. And I don't think that they're giving the best to their team. And I've taken in employees who I've had in the past and have come back here. And it's a completely different vibe now. They like working here. They want to be here. They bring their friends. They bring their family.
Why Scott Closed the Residential Division of His Company and Now Focuses Exclusively On HOAs
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. Let's talk about sales and marketing a bit. So you've been doing sales for 30 years, primarily focused on HOAs. One of the exciting things is you've actually been able to remove your residential clients. That's kind of a bell ringing moment. I'm going to ring a bell for you.
Scott Callenius:
Thank you.
Jack Jostes:
No, I mean, that's kind of a big deal because when we got started, you're like, "Oh, I really want HOA, but I have these residential." How are you seeing marketing fitting into getting commercial getting HOA clients, or more so, how is the customer buying different now versus what you were seeing maybe even a few years ago?
Scott Callenius:
Yeah. I mean, I think that a lot of the HOAs now are looking at their contractors a little differently. They're looking for more specialized contractors. They're looking for contractors that will specialize in what they need for us. As we've focused in on our team, trained our team to do their task and do it the best they can, that our quality of work is going up. We're way more efficient and our homeowners are much happier. Because now, they know we can operate on a schedule and we can maintain... I mean, we have 30 plus communities that we maintain from little to big. And they want to know that, "Hey, we're going to be here on time, and on schedule, and on budget," and all these things.
And yes, can we handle their enhancement projects? Of course. But they also have the confidence to know that I'm not out trying to get a development. I'm not out trying to be a landscape contractor that's just doing installation. In one of our videos, we talked about that. The shiny object. They get distracted. And sales is a big thing with that, Jack, right now. They want to know that you're going to be a contractor that's going to help them with their community.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think people have been burned by the... And some companies can do it. I think you have to be a certain size where you have a specific team that's working on maybe commercial or a specific HOA division. I definitely see it working that clients can do residential and commercial, but it's when they're not quite at the staff level to do it, that, like you were saying, having the person who's really good at doing a few landscape construction projects may not be the best at managing the volume of clients that you have for these HOA communities. One of the people, when you came here, while you were on the plane or something, I think somebody closed a deal with you or something. And they were somebody that had scoured your website. Tell us a little bit, you don't need to say who it was, but what was their story and how did they buy from you?
Scott Callenius:
Yeah. So the morning that I jumped on the plane, I signed a contract for a new HOA. And I had met with them, and I had met with a couple other board members of the community and they were all on board. It was a great referral. And then I went and I met with the president. And at the time, I hadn't met with her prior. So she calls up and she says, "Hey, listen, I want to sign your contract. But I'd like to meet with you face-to-face." During the conversation, she starts telling me that she did a thorough investigation of basically my company. And I looked at her a little taken back, and I said, "Really? What did that involve?" And she's like, "Well, I looked on your Instagram and I read all of that. And then I checked you out on LinkedIn. And then I jumped over to Facebook. And then I basically read every page of your website."
And I almost fell down, even though I was sitting down. And the other board member who was sitting at the table looked at me and almost... He's a commercial photographer, and said, "Wow, how is that possible that you read everything?" And she said, "I watched your videos. I checked you out. I looked everywhere online, and you're a great fit for our community." And I loved that, Jack, because we had made a significant investment into our website. And it's important for us to have that image online but it's also important for that image that's online to be replicated into the field.
Jack Jostes:
Well, I'm glad that when she investigated you, that you passed. And I'm not surprised that you did because you have a lot of great content on your social media, on your website, and yes. Working with Ramblin Jackson ruins the way that you use the internet in some ways, because you notice those little things like people's websites who don't have the security thing. But once you know about it, it's really obvious stuff. Why don't you take care of this?
Scott Callenius:
Yeah. And I think too, Jack, with that being said, though, I think a lot of people try to put this online brochure out there, and then they don't look the part. So it's like, I think it's very important, because you need social credibility and social proof, that, "Hey, this is the come that I chose." But then when they show up, and you're in branded stuff, and your trucks are logoed, and you have all your things, and it's the same people that are in those pictures are out there working, I think that's very important to the end user. You know what I mean? If I was a contractor of any scale, if I was a home improvement contractor or a landscaper, I'd make sure that my pictures were up to date, I'd make sure that the content is correct. And also, I would focus in on what I'm going to do online. I think that you need to have a plan of what you're trying to do. You can't be everything to everyone.
Jack Jostes:
When your marketing, sales, and operations are aligned, that's really where you're just on fire with running a great business. And then your employees are enjoying it too. So I think you've made a lot of really big changes in your business. And thanks so much for coming on the show to share this with us. I'm inspired by what you're doing, and I'm sure people out here listening are inspired too.
Scott Callenius:
Thank you, Jack. I really appreciate being on your show. Anytime.
Jack Jostes:
Scott, so for people listening who want to connect with you, where can we connect? Where can learn more?
Scott Callenius:
I think the best place to connect with me is just look me up on LinkedIn and follow me there. Got lots of followers, lots of activity. Hit me up on the message there. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook as well, but LinkedIn's really the place. Send me a message. I'm open book. I love to help everybody. I even have people in our Mastermind, Jack, reaching out to us, so-
Jack Jostes:
Cool.
Scott Callenius:
... let's do it.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. I appreciate you being so generous with your time and coming on the show multiple times. And yeah. Follow Scott, connect with him on Instagram and LinkedIn, because one thing you do really well there is you post great photos of your team. You make selfie videos on your phone, where you're out at a job site. You're like, "Hey, I'm at a job site. And here's what I'm seeing." And they're just off the cuff and they're done. And they're really good. So learn from Scott. And all right, well thanks so much, Scott. Thanks again for coming on the show. And everyone, look in the show notes for links to Scott's website and social media. And thanks for listening.
Scott is a really great person to connect with on LinkedIn. In fact, I was just messaging with him on LinkedIn today about how he got another lead through LinkedIn today. So he's posting really interesting selfie videos, doing little just informal property site visits and making videos of what he's seeing. He's posting photos of his staff. So check him out, get inspired by what he's doing. And if you are a commercial landscaper and you're currently marketing yourself like a residential contractor maybe the people who built your website or your marketing team, they don't really know that commercial is different from residential landscaping and you're not getting leads from the internet, well, you've got to bring your sales and market team to my paid virtual event, The Landscaper's Guide to Commercial Sales and Marketing on April 21st, where we're going to dive into why marketing to commercial clients is different than marketing to residential clients. And also what's similar, what you can use that will work.
How to leverage digital marketing for subsets of your commercial client list, like HOAs are different from municipalities, and hospitals, and so on. How to get apartment clients, all those things we're going to cover in this webinar, including how to stand from your competition with branding and differentiation, and the power of video so you stop losing and stop competing on price. And finally, how to use outbound marketing, how to proactively prospect using LinkedIn and other social media to connect with property managers, property owners, to get your foot in the door that way. Check that out at landscapersguide.com/events. See a link in the show notes. And if you know a commercial landscaper who should check out this interview or our upcoming event, please share this episode with them. My name's Jack Jostes, and I look forward to talking to you next week on The Landscaper's Guide.