00:00 Introducing Michael Ashley from Michael Ashley Landscape Architecture in Kansas City, MO
Jack Jostes:
Alright everyone, welcome back to the Landscaper's Guide. Today I'm excited to interview Michael Ashley from Michael Ashley Landscape Architecture, their design build firm in the Kansas City region. Michael and I actually connected on Instagram. We had an Instagram post that was like, Hey, do you want to be a guest or check out our podcast. And Michael, you commented, Hey, when's my interview? Right. And we just kind of started messaging and one thing led to the other and I'm excited to have you on the show. So tell us a little bit about yourself.
Michael Ashley:
Hey, thank you for the introduction. Yeah. Michael Ashley here, landscape architect Design build guy. I'm a University of Georgia graduate. Grew up in Atlanta and my dad was also a landscape architect, a University of Georgia graduate. And so kind of followed in the footsteps of him, Roy Ashley and Associates, which is now called RAA design, and was able to gain some perspective from dad doing this for 46 years. And, you know, just really have the ability to carry that landscape architecture to the next generation. And I'm having a lot of fun doing some design build and just thought we could chat about it today.
Jack Jostes:
Great. And, so tell us, you know, a little bit, one of the things that we were talking about was, was your vision of the company. So you've been in business for 10 years. Where are you taking the company and how do you see marketing helping you get there?
3:26 How To Grow From A $2M Landscape Company To A $5M Landscape Company
Michael Ashley:
Right, right. And this is one of the reasons I wanted to come onto the podcast to talk about some of the things that we've been experiencing and some of the growth that we've been experiencing. And the vision that you've alerted some of your listeners to and on your book and some of the upcoming things that you're gonna be talking about was a key word for me to start thinking about for the next five to 10 years. Where do we want to take this? Where do I want to take it? And where do the guys that are working with me and my crews want to take this thing? And you know, we've been growing at about a 30, 35% clip every year, approaching the $2 million range. And I would like to get, you know, closer to the four to $5 million range and maybe get some Hell Yeah Customers, right? Oh, yes. And definitely get some of those folks involved and, and really hit the right kind of customers that we want to be working with. And so I think some of the technologies we've been looking at that have really been helpful to me has been Thumbtack. And we could talk a little bit about that. And also Instagram. And of course I have a website that needs some SEO improvements, so we can talk about maybe some of those technologies and how to embrace them and how to maybe build upon them.
4:49 Does Thumbtack Generate Qualified Leads In Kansas City?
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. I'd love to hear, you know, I'm surprised to hear that you mentioned Thumbtack, because a lot of times Thumbtack is typically more, you know, smaller jobs, task type projects. Are you finding that you're getting quality leads from Thumbtack for like design build architecture projects?
Michael Ashley:
Yeah, it's actually been pretty good to me over the years. And we have about 50, 60 rankings on there, mostly all five stars. We've, maintained about a 4.8 star rating. And the folks see that. And I will say there's a lot of leads on there that are sort of smaller jobs, but we still have a two-man crew to go out and do the smaller jobs. And then sometimes during the course of each year, and I've been with them now for I think seven years we will stumble upon a hundred thousand dollars plus job. It's even led to even more, you know, higher revenue than that. So it does pay the bills. It's rather expensive. They've really increased the prices over the years. But we have just found it to be a pretty good service. And because of our rankings, I think we're able to get, some pretty nice sized jobs out of that.
Jack Jostes: Well, so is that not your experience with other
Michael Ashely:
No, it's been the opposite experience. So I find that it may vary regionally for example, Yelp is really popular out West really, and in Hawaii and in California and, and Oregon. And people even find dentists and lawyers and, and things on Yelp out West. But in the Midwest or in Colorado, or on the Northeast, no one uses that. They're primarily using, you know, Google search and Google, Google My Business, Google Business profile ratings, things like that. So that's just interesting. It's, uh, it's it. That's cool. And then tell us, what are you doing on Instagram? 'cause I certainly noticed your Instagram, right? Once you comment and, you know, I get a lot of bozos commenting with nonsense on my, mean, literally every day I get people who are really angry posting stuff, and I just laugh.
Jack Jostes:
Oh yeah, you wouldn't believe it. So I just laugh and I delete it. If they post a legitimate comment that's like, they're disagreeing with me in a legitimate way, I always leave it and reply. But if people are just posting garbage, swearing, I mean, it's really funny. But anyways, yours what? You were like, Hey, I want, I wanna be on the show. And I look at a lot of Instagram profiles, the landscapers sure. Yours stood out to me. One of the things that you're doing that I liked was the videos that you're making, and you've sent me some of them. So tell us a little bit about the reels that you're making on Instagram for your projects.
7:43 How Michael Ashley Makes Instagram Reels
Michael Ashley:
Absolutely. Well, that's a good lead in. I appreciate that. And, you know, on Instagram, I kind of have been doing it myself. I have some office gals that are helping me with some of this stuff too, but I think it's really important. That was another thing that I caught onto what you've been talking about, is, the taking good photos and good videos, not only during the construction process before and after shots, and then I have really found lately that they've got on Instagram, these little templates that you can find on the bottom left, and you click on it and it's already set up for you. That's just fantastic. That I can go to a template with music already calibrated for it and pop in my little shots there. And everybody, everybody loves good landscapes. I mean, there's so few people that don't admire that.
Michael Ashley:
How can you not win with that? You know? And so we've been doing reels with those templates, a lot of those lately. And I kind of switched to reels and kind of experimented with some of my own. And then I have plenty of the older posts that are more still shots and that kind of thing. But I think the reels for us have been very effective comment wise. I haven't had a lot of comments, other than people saying direct message me for, you know, getting exposure to other Kansas sites or whatever. But, we have some comments and you usually put the hearts on there. To me, it's been fun, and I know everybody's kind of about this in this world, but to, you know, look at the likes and see how many people view it, uh, and that type of thing. And one other thing I'll mention, and I'll let you jump in, is that there's some boosting capabilities where you can pay a little bit of money for, I think, some very effective advertising to reach a broader audience, right? For, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars. And it also links into my Facebook page.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. So, yeah, a couple things. I think having a mix of the photo posts and also the reels is a good idea. And using the templates is awesome. I think the reels currently have a lot of reach, like people see them and if you tag them and you start tagging things like hashtag Kansas City or hashtag whatever Yes, suburb you're in, that helps the algorithm and you tag a location for the setting, it helps the algorithm understand where you are and you can show up in people's search. So like, when they're searching on Instagram, content gets suggested to them. So I personally use reels quite a bit, and I also do Facebook and Instagram ads. That's that you actually commented on an advertisement of mine, right. So I can target, right? You know, I can target landscapers, like you can get pretty dialed in with your targeting, through the advertising, but you can also just click boost and waste a lot of money. So I think you gotta be deliberate about what kind of campaign you're trying to do with people. And like for me I'm sending people to opt in to subscribe to my podcast, and thenI have their email address and now I can email them and I've got Instagram.
11:19 Is Twitter - or X - Relevant To Landscape Marketing?
So if like, like Twitter just became X and who knows if, are you aware of this that Twitter has rebranded as X?
Michael Ashley:
I did not know that.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. It's like, just, just this week they're like, we are now X and it's like, why would you, you know, why would you get rid of like 15 or 20, I, I don't know, like nearly 20 years of, of brand recognition is Twitter to become X, but they did. Wow. And so my point is like, I believe in marketing and social media, like you should always be building your email list because whatever platform is no longer popular, it doesn't matter because people still use email. And that's gonna likely push you closer to a sales conversation with someone.
Michael Ashley:
Right? Right.
Jack Jostes:
So I think like you know, social media, you're kind of like giving away ideas and helpful content and then hopefully starting a conversation with people, whether it's through direct message like we did, and then that eventually led to email, and now we're meeting. That's kind of how I see it working for sales for you.
Michael Ashley:
Right. I think that's a good way to put it. And I wanted to comment a little further on the Boost. So on my boost it says, do you want Johnson County, which we're in Johnson County, Kansas. That's where most of the money clients are, and you know, there's also Kansas City, Missouri, but would you like to do Lenexa, Kansas only, which is where our office or Johnson County, would you rather have more profile visits? Or would you rather have more website visits? It gives you some choices, so I think that's a pretty interesting thing. I do not use Twitter. My brother is in Atlanta and he is a big time commercial real estate guru, and he uses Twitter a lot. And I don't know if that's something that you would suggest or not, but I haven't, I've done a little bit on there, but it's mostly been Instagram, Facebook, and then the website.
Jack Jostes:
I think I like that Twitter exists and that people can speak freely about things and debate and post videos. So I, and from a marketing standpoint, do I think landscape design companies need to be on there? Probably not. I would not prioritize it. I think Instagram would be the place to focus, partly because it's so visual and people go there for inspiring content design ideas, and then you can repurpose those videos onto Facebook too. And we ran the 2022 Landscaper Sales Survey last year, and we're gonna be running it again this year. Yeah. And, last year landscapers said that social media was the top driver of new leads for their business. So I think you're on track here. And I think that Facebook groups are very powerful. So like, I don't know where, what it's like where you live, but in my town there's a Facebook group that's very active and people often ask, Hey, who do you know who does patios?
Jack Jostes:
Who do you know who does heating and air? Like, people are constantly asking for referrals.And that's where like Michael Ashley, the guy is in the group and you can comment and like, you don't wanna overdo this in the group. But occasionally, you know, you could post one of those reels in there, you could save it and repost it in there, or take one of your cool photos or take a, you know, make a graphic like with an offer on it and post it in there. And just, that's another way that, that you can kind of proactively get into the neighborhoods of your customers is on Facebook. And also Nextdoor is pretty prominent.
Michael Ashley:
Yeah. I haven't done anything with Nextdoor, although I've heard other people talk about it, especially when I was smaller and in a growth mode. And when I first started, I was kind of running it all by myself with my crews. And that's another thing that we talked about earlier, is instead of subcontractors calling them trade partners. And that's a lesson I've learned from you guys, and I think that's really important. And then one other thing that I did wanna mention on Instagram is the hashtag deal. I've tried to just sit there and have fun and dream of hashtags that I think will reach 20 million people. And there's been a few that have blown up off of, you know, getting the right hashtag. Right. And I also learned from one of my clients that did this kind of marketing to do seven hashtags.
16:04 Which Hashtags Should Landscapers Use On Instagram?
And I would be interested to see if you have a thought on the number of hashtags and maybe embellish on what you've run across with hashtags.
Jack Jostes:
Specific to landscape companies, you, and we, this is a key part of my book and all of our marketing is who is your Hell Yes Customer. Right. And a key part of that is what is their service area? You do landscape design build in a very limited part of the world. So in my opinion, unless you just like it, which is totally fine, you don't really need people outside of your service area to see your content. So that's why, again, I prioritize geography, geographic hashtags, and getting into the local markets. And then also though, using a hashtag landscape design, that's another, prominent hashtag, hashtag landscape architecture. Some of those, the algorithm then starts to associate you with that. If people click on it and they watch all of your real, and they search for those hashtags. Because a lot of people, you know, will use Pinterest or Instagram, and they'll just search for landscape design or outdoor living. And those are, those are partly like search engine optimization ideas also is you know, using similar to the way that you would build out what we call the Tree of Good Fortune with a limb for each city and a branch for each service, you could have a hashtag for each city and a hashtag for each service area
Michael Ashley:
Seems to make a lot of sense. And I need to get into that book. Need to check it out,
Jack Jostes:
Check it out. You know, read, read a chapter, just pick one or listen to it. It is on Audible.
Michael Ashley:
Okay.
Jack Jostes:
So the other thing that I've seen that works is, especially with people who have a model like yours, whether they call it design build or some people call it design manage, where they're bringing in trade partners, is interacting with some of those other businesses, or are there referral partners? Like do you do lawn care?
Michael Ashley:
We do have some lawn care associated with one of our trade partners. And so we do some townhomes and apartment complexes and some higher end residential that we've completed the project. I have found that that also leads to snow removal and those particular properties. So we have done some of that, but I would say it's more design. Because I'm a landscape architect doing the design build process. I also wanted to mention land effects, and I don't know if you've dealt with that or not, but that is a very, very good software. It's a little hard to learn, but once you learn it, it makes drawing plans a snap. I mean, it's amazing. It's an AutoCAD based software, land FX out of California. And I wanted to plug them because they've really made my life a lot simpler when it comes to design. I could push a button and the whole plant schedule came up. I mean, you can't get better than that. Right.
Jack Jostes:
That's amazing.
Michael Ashley:
So, what should we hit on next? Can you tell me a little bit more about how you're helping some of your clients with this vision?
Jack Jostes:
Yeah, sure. So thanks for checking out that podcast. And for those of you listening, if you haven't seen it, I did a podcast a couple episodes ago, or maybe it was just last week, depending on when this comes out. Anyways, check out our show notes for the link. I read a really great book called The Vivid Vision. And the vivid vision was about helping your employees and your team, and then also your trade partners or your spouse or your family or friends, you know, people that you're working with. See the vision of where are we heading? And then attracting people who wanna be a part of that to like, yeah, cool. I'd love to be a part of a $4 million landscape design build firm. And helping them see what kinds of positions are on it or what kinds of trade partner opportunities are there.
20:24 How To Stand Out To Your Hell Yes Customer
Jack Jostes:
And they can see themselves helping you achieve the vision. And hopefully they're aligned with it. So some of the ways that we, you know, we help our clients with that is actually on an initial call that we call the marketing brainstorm call, where we just get clear on who is your Hell Yes Customer, what are the services that you offer? Why do you offer them, which ones do you want more of? And what do you want more of in the future? So that's, that's a key part of what we do, is helping our clients get clear on, well, what do you want next? And then, what marketing do you need to do to help you get there? And that could be where we usually start with people is the Foundational Four the branding and differentiation. Why are you different from your competitors is part of the vision, right? So our vision is to be the leading design build firm. Well, why you over someone else? There are a lot of other people.
Michael Ashley:
How do you tell that story? Right? How do you tell that story?
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. And then, and then how do you tell the story? And we help them in in our book, we talk about three reasons to buy and communicating the three reasons that people should buy from you over someone else. And then a lot of our clients, we help them with video. So I think there's definitely room and I make a lot of smartphone videos myself. But then there's also some professional video that we help clients with for like recruiting or a video that they're gonna send to every customer before the first meeting. And that helps the client see the vision of, hey, here's where we're heading, here's how this company can help us get there. And equally important is who is a hell no customer? How can we help? Oh, yes. Weeded out people that you don't want. Because yes, there's no shortage of people who want landscaping of some kind, but it's really, it's like, which kind of landscaping do you need? And are we the right fit for that?
Michael Ashley:
I think that's an interesting point. I hadn't even thought of the Hell Yes and the hell no customers until I ran across your projection of that. And it, and it makes a lot of sense because all the guys that are doing this across the nation want to define and get those, and we've all had 'em the Hell Yes Customers. And then how do I get the next one? I mean, that is just so interesting to me that we can have that conversation about how to shape customers that you want and don't want. I mean, that's the bottom line here, really. And then is it, you know, 20,000 to 40,000 is kind of our sweet spot, or is it a hundred thousand dollars plus jobs where you set a crew there for a month or is it even, and we do take 'em on the little jobs, you know, the 500 to a thousand dollars jobs that I call keeping the lights on clients, right. I mean, just go, well, like today we went out and put three cubic yards as top soil and subside for a guy that we did a patio for 1800. You know, I mean, those are still good jobs, especially when it's as hot as it's been, you know?
Jack Jostes:
Well, yeah. And that, that I think as long as it's not taking away from your ability to go and meet with a potential Hell Yes Customer or seller or service to them, I think that those smaller projects can be great. I had a client recently who made 13 grand in profit on a sod installation. You know that's a good day.
Michael Ashley:
Right. That's probably making sod, but Sure. If you can get that one
Jack Jostes:
So then you know, once you're clear on that, do you have photos of the $100,000 project? What photo are you putting on your homepage? A lot of times people, you know, driven by ego wanna put their biggest, most badass project photo they've ever taken everywhere. But one time I was meeting with a client, and I've told this client story several times because it's so relevant. And he was late for the meeting, and he kept answering his phone, and I'm like, Hey man, what's going on? He's like, I'm so sorry, I have this, this project. And I was like, well, tell me about the project. And, he is like, oh, I hate these pool projects where I have roof structures and water features and all these different things. And I'm like, why? He's like, I have all these different subs and all these different permits and it goes on for months and months and months. And even though they're $200,000, I've lost money on 'em. And, and I'm listening to him. And meanwhile I have his website up and what do you think was on his homepage, right?
Michael Ashley:
That, that big huge
Jack Jostes:
It's massive pool, right? Yeah, exactly. The massive pool with the fire pit and all, all of this stuff. And we got clear that it was actually 50 to $75,000 projects were his sweet spot. His Hell Yes Customer was like 50 to 75. And so for him, I was like, Hey, well, you're getting all of these leads for these big projects that you don't even like doing, that you're not making a profit in. And so that's a big deal, right? The photos that you show potential customers is gonna give them a sense of what this company does.
Michael Ashley:
I think that's a huge deal, and that's a really interesting story to show how important it is to get it right on what kind of photos you do need to show for a Hell Yes Customer. And again, something I hadn't really thought about, I mean, I'm sensitive to it. Our biggest project was a $235,000 sign for the entrance to Lenexa City Center, that's our city, Lenexa, Kansas. And it, they built hundreds of millions of dollars of buildings and lofts and all kinds of development. And this is a real beautiful fountain sign that introduces it, but I don't have that as a major feature on the website or anything, because I don't think that's what we are trying to do.
Jack Jostes:
And that's okay.
Michael Ashley:
The high-end residential, the people that want to pay for my knowledge and my service and what I've been dedicated to quality for 30 years, that's what I've been trying to build on. And everything that's up in this head, that's what they're paying for, you know?
Jack Jostes:
Right.
Michael Ashley:
Rather than a $235,000 sign. So I think that's very interesting and telling on, you know, talking about this vision and, and also what you wanna show to the world. And it's so interesting with the whole social media deal that now we can just talk to somebody from China about what we're doing here. You know, it's just so interesting to me.
Jack Jostes:
I agree. It is. And you know, in many ways there's never been a better time to market your business. I mean, look, you have a smartphone, you have an incredible camera and video camera, you can publish things from your phone. You know, there's so many different things that you can do.
28:03 Why SEO Is One Of The Best Ways To Market Your Landscape Company
The one thing that you had mentioned, when you met with Robert, you know, was SEO. And SEO is one of the most powerful things that you can do to attract your Hell Yes Customer. Because they're often, especially for these high end residential projects, they're doing a lot of research online and they're googling questions and they're looking for people, and they, you know, a lot of times landscape design these bigger projects, this is a thing, you might think about it for years, right?
Jack Jostes:
You might, yes. Like you're, you're looking to maybe do this one time in your life. Many people are gonna do this one time and they're gonna wanna do it really well. So having a website that is the source of the answers to the questions that they have about budget, you know, we build pricing guides on a lot of websites because people Google how much does landscape design cost in Kansas City? And it's like, what do you want 'em to find? Like Low's or Thumbtack or Home Advisor or Wikipedia, or like, right, someone that's not you, that's gonna probably tell them a price that's a third of what it actually costs, right? And now they come in with one third price expectations, or do you want to just help them figure out, here are the ranges and that builds, that builds some trust with them.
Michael Ashley:
And does that help build SEO too, having the pricing on your website?
Jack Jostes:
Well, I can tell you that I have numerous clients who generate leads from the pricing page of their website, because people, people Google it, they, they google those questions. So you know SEO is really, it's building content, writing content on your website that answers a question that somebody is searching. And so the more questions that you think of that people can answer, the more pages you're gonna want to have. And that's why if you have, let's pretend outdoor living landscape design. Do you do pools?
Michael Ashley:
Yes, we do pools.
Jack Jostes:
Okay. You know, pool building, so that's three different services, right? There times all the different service areas that you service your site can become pretty expansive. And then that way when people are in those neighborhoods or areas Googling that you have a better chance of showing up. Or if they Google, do you need that many pricing pages? No, I don't think so. You need like one really quality pricing page, but often when people find you and they get onto the site, they're anxious about budget, they're looking at these amazing photos, they're like, how? I have no idea how much this is gonna cost. But if you're like, Hey, here's some price ranges, they're like, oh, okay, you're cool. And then you're like, Hey, follow me on Instagram for some inspiration. Right? And now they, now they start following you and months go by and they're seeing the reels, and then eventually they fill out the form on your website. So that's kind of how I see this all. They kind of compliment each other. Okay. You know, like social media and SEO and email, and I do a lot of print stuff, print postcards, different things.
Michael Ashley:
That's cool. And I also think I heard you mention about doing gift boxes. And that's, that kind of was an interesting thing to me. I've been trying to figure out a way for all these years to thank someone after they spent 60,000 or 80,000 with you and or they built a $35,000 patio, and what do you do? You know, I mean, I guess a gift box could be kind of a cool idea to continue the momentum. We've been doing some gift cards and then on some clients we've actually just provided a plant. And I'll go over there and plant it myself at the end, kind of like the icing on the cake. But I think all of those little things and maybe little handwritten notes that we do a lot of times are so important, and people really remember those things.
Jack Jostes:
I've got some handwritten notes right here. So I think the handwritten note is a lost art. It's a high touch. People love it. The gifts, some kind of thoughtful gift at the end of the project is meaningful and people appreciate it. And I'm a fan of not sending stuff with my logo on it. So there, there are different schools of thought around this, but part of my experience and running my company is sometimes people give me a bunch of branded coffee mugs and things, and like, I used to just bring them home and my wife's like, Jack, I don't want, you know, 20 different land landscape coffee mugs. And I'm like, well, I kind of do. But you know what I mean? Um, so don’t
Michael Ashley:
Do it a little bit, right? Yeah.
Jack Jostes:
Overdo it. I think that your brand needs to be part of it. So like I send people my book and that's part of it, but we also just send some beef jerky to people because it's cool. And we want 'em to enjoy the beef jerky. I don't need my logo on there for them to remember that I sent them beef jerky. That tasted really good.
42:21 Follow Michael Ashley on Instagram @mala_llc
Alright, Michael, well, hey, thanks so much for coming on the show. For people who want to network with you, I think they should follow you on Instagram. So tell us what's your Instagram handle?
Michael Ashley:
I would love that. My Instagram handle is @mala_llc. Love to have some followers and be enthused on any comments or likes we can get.
Jack Jostes:
Cool. Well, I'll put that in our show notes and definitely follow Michael there. And again, thanks for coming on the show.
Michael Ashley:
Thank you very much for your time today. Enjoyed it.
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Check out the Vivid Vision Book Recommendation Podcast: https://landscapersguide.com/book-recommendation-for-landscape-companies-vivid-vision-by-cameron-herold/
