Jack Jostes [00:00:00]:
What are some of the things that business owners listening operators might learn? What are some of the mistakes that it would help them prevent?
Mike Wagner [00:00:07]:
One of the most important things is there's a lot of hesitation over following standards and that people think that if there's a standard for the industry, if they don't adhere to exactly what it states, they're going to be in trouble, say, in case of a legal proceeding.
Jack Jostes [00:00:21]:
So part of our onboarding is online and that I found frees up more time for coaching around things like time management. A lot of the training of what we do can be accomplished through the learning management system.
Mike Wagner [00:00:34]:
We have to make sure we're working as partners with our clients, not just us doing what we do in the snow and ice industry and having to evolve and adapt and innovate without letting them know exactly where we're at in the process. This helps give resources and tools to companies of any size to help them understand the guidelines and best practices for creating a safety program.
00:57 - Introduction to Mike Wagner from ExBet Advising
Jack Jostes [00:00:57]:
All right everyone, welcome back to the Landscapers Guide. Today I'm excited to interview Mike Wagner from ExBet Advising. He is a SIMA member who's developing some amazing things in the snow industry. So Mike, thanks for coming on the show.
Mike Wagner [00:01:11]:
Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm excited to talk about it today.
Jack Jostes [00:01:14]:
So Cheryl Higley from SIMA recommended that I have you on the show to talk about some of the things that you're creating for SIMA that are going to improve safety in the industry. And that's really what I wanted to talk to you about today. But for people who are watching or listening who maybe haven't met you, tell us a little bit about your background.
Mike Wagner [00:01:32]:
Sure. Yeah. So I come from a background that falls in municipal snow work. I worked for sitting county of Denver and Boulder county as a heavy equipment mechanic, slowly evolved into that and then moved into the private industry in landscaping, working for Terracare at the time down in Centennial, Colorado, and then moving over to Designscapes Colorado. So once I worked there, I was going to school at the same time earning my bachelor's degree in business and then moved on to earning my masters as well. So it was kind of this natural transition in my passion for vehicles and equipment. I proposed the idea of creating the role of fleet manager at Designscapes Colorado. Being that it was a bigger company, they didn't really have anybody that oversaw that kind of operation in the company.
Mike Wagner [00:02:18]:
Following that, my deep passion for snow work just kind of evolved into me managing more of the snow processes, clientele site property inspections, contract development revisions, and then the safety and risk portion. So as that grew, just with my background in fleet and snow, I slowly integrated the role of safety manager in the company as well, kind of all under that same umbrella. So now I oversee all three of those functions at Designscapes, but this kind of led to me doing my own advising work. On the side is I feel there's a huge need in our industry to educate people, create training programs that are effective in reducing risk and really safety issues to the company, the community, and the client.
Jack Jostes [00:03:04]:
What types of businesses do you advise and consult with?
Mike Wagner [00:03:08]:
So right now I work with the Professional Association, the Snow and Ice Management Association. I've also worked with FleetPros, which is a fleet association based in the Rocky Mountain region. And then I also work as an expert witness with attorneys and law firms, doing some casework with reviewing case documents, giving expert advice and opinions throughout the legal process, and ultimately developing expert reports.
03:31 - ANSI Standards for Safety Programs in Industries
Jack Jostes [00:03:31]:
Well, that's cool. So tell us a little bit about, we have this enormous acronym here. It's ANSI. So what is that acronym and what is the safety standard program that you're helping create?
Mike Wagner [00:03:44]:
Sure. So the ANSI standards are very common in many industries. SIMA has been involved in them before, but this is the first one that's being developed in the industry that focuses on just safety and safety programs within organizations. So this helps give resources and tools to companies of any size to help them understand the guidelines and best practices for creating a safety program. A lot of companies don't have the resources that just aren't on that scale. Predominantly in the snow and ice industry, you see much smaller companies, 100 employees or fewer, and they just don't have the access and the resources that the bigger companies do, the bigger corporations. So this helps, given those guidelines, to help ensure that they're creating a training program that's effective, while also to protect themselves in case of incidents such as slipping falls, accidents, things like that that can happen on site or environmental concerns that can come up from usage of materials.
Jack Jostes [00:04:41]:
And so you worked on this with about twelve or 14 other people. Tell me a little bit, who else was involved and what did you end up creating? What's new?
Mike Wagner [00:04:50]:
So the group that was involved, a lot of people have been in the snow and ice industry for a long time. There was a lot of tenure, a lot of experience. You had some owners and operators. You also had some directors of operations, and you had some other snow professionals, too. But the group that comprised this stakeholder advisory group, as SIMA called it, was filled with hundreds of years of experience combined. So through everybody collaborating, finding what needed to be addressed, as far as creating an industry standard to best help organizations, I think was just an inclusive effort by everyone and what they've dealt with throughout their careers and what they've experienced in their companies. So the nice thing, too, is this encompassed different regions. It wasn't just the United States, it was all over, but then it was also, we had them member two in Canada as well.
Mike Wagner [00:05:40]:
So it helped kind of bridge those gaps that any member of the association could help use this tool to implement in their company.
Jack Jostes [00:05:47]:
And so what is the format of it? And so for the, for audience members who are watching or listening, maybe they have under 100 employees, maybe they're in SIMA. Maybe they're on the fence about joining SIMA. They probably should, but let's pretend that they did join. How would they actually get the safety standard? Is it like an online course? Is it video content? What's the format?
Mike Wagner [00:06:12]:
So the actual standard itself is nice. It's just a, I believe it's a seven page PDF document that's certified by the ANSI organization. And then SIMA is going to have the availability of that document. But then through ANSI itself, they also have the availability of getting that document. So it's one of those resources that SIMA sees as a benefit to its members as well as non members. So it's going to be one of those things that anybody in the industry who recognizes what SIMA does or follows what they do, they'll have access to this material. By no means is it a resource that is created to profit off of this is a resource that's created to help the industry as a whole improve and progress.
06:54 - Adopting Standards While Considering Individual Company Needs
Jack Jostes [00:06:54]:
And what are some of the big challenges that by reviewing the safety standard, what are some of the things that business owners, listening operators might learn? What are some of the mistakes that it would help them prevent? From a safety standpoint, I think one.
Mike Wagner [00:07:11]:
Of the most important things is there's a lot of hesitation over following standards, and that people think that if there's a standard for the industry, if they don't adhere to exactly what it states, they're going to be in trouble, say, in case of a legal proceeding, or if they have some gaps in their training program, their safety program. But what's most important is for people to take this document and really understand how they can integrate it into their operations, because not every company is the same. Everyone functions a little bit differently. So they also have to take this material and be able to understand the minimums of what it's expecting, but also, too, that you can set the bar a lot higher if you so choose to. This is just a great starting point for people to say, all right, I have a safety program. I'm performing a needs assessment, seeing where my gaps are. How can I fill these in? By taking this document and looking at what we need to do to make it better.
Jack Jostes [00:08:06]:
And is it bilingual? What languages is it offered in?
Mike Wagner [00:08:12]:
Right now it's English only. So the document itself is English. But as we get more into the training, so the actual training content will be English and Spanish to start.
Jack Jostes [00:08:22]:
And so the training content, is that something that you're helping develop?
Mike Wagner [00:08:26]:
Yes. So I've been working on this project. This has been ongoing since about September of 2023. So it started out as a volunteer task force. All of us got together and started really looking at what do we need to do to create training for different types of roles. And once again, this was a volunteer group that had members of all sorts of different levels of experience in ten years creating it specifically on roles we're looking at, how can we make sure that this training is going to meet the industry standards once again to help create a resource to the rest of the industry that might not be able to create all their own content.
Jack Jostes [00:09:02]:
And so this SIMA safety task force eventually led to the sidewalk crew training program. And that's what you're talking about. So what is that? So that's beyond just this seven page PDF, right?
Mike Wagner [00:09:15]:
Yes. Yeah. So this, what we basically looked at doing is taking that seven page PDF. So the ANSI standard for the industry and working through what the group, the stakeholder group created as a minimum, and then how can we focus on each person's role in snow and ice management and make sure that as we're creating the training, we're meeting the minimum standards that we set ourselves so that we're making sure we aren't missing those gaps. I think that was an important part of me being a part of both processes, is that as I'm creating the training and part of this other task force, the safety task force, I've worked with the stakeholder advisory group as well. So I was able to ensure that we were meeting not only our minimum standards through the training, but as we carry forward in creating training for other roles, we're always going to be meeting the industry standards that we expect as well.
Jack Jostes [00:10:05]:
How do state laws vary when it comes to the safety standard? Or what are you seeing there?
Mike Wagner [00:10:14]:
So it's kind of tough because every state's quite different. A lot of where you see differences in state legislation for snow and ice industry folks is more on the legal proceeding sides, such as slip and fall incidents. Who's liable, how liability is assigned on a premises. There's nothing really in place that has set that standard for safety for an organization. So companies, as you know, they have to follow OSHA standards for the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, but nothing outlines specifically what's expected for the snow industry. So this helps kind of give traction to that topic and that now we have something to build on in the industry where we didn't have that before. And this industry has been around a long time and only seeking to improve itself to help better the companies that are working out there performing snow and ice removal. Whereas before, you know, we've got a lot of different players in it that just kind of do whatever they want to do, or they think they may be covering everything, but maybe they aren't because they don't have those resources or the membership associations to help lean on for those types of answers.
11:21 - Integrating Safety and Using Salt Effectively
Jack Jostes [00:11:21]:
Yeah, so this will definitely help people with that. What are you going to present on at the Symposium this year?
Mike Wagner [00:11:27]:
So two of my key topics, so this is going to be one of them is how do we integrate a safety standard into your organization? So it's going to be kind of a brief topic that's going to kind of be on the show floor where you're open to questions. People can come up, we can talk about the topic and really look at how are you going to critique this so it fits your needs? The other topic I'll be talking about is effectively using salt without sacrificing the quality of your service. So that's a big topic in snow and ice nowadays is, you know, managing our chloride use. So that's what this focuses on is how can we make sure the clients educated on the products we're using, the quantities we're using it by stood, but still doing a good job without jeopardizing people from slipping and falling on site because we aren't using enough material, or maybe we're using too much and people are slipping and falling on leftover material because people aren't applying it properly. So it's going to be a good educational topic. I think it's always a big topic for the snow and ice industry, but it's just one of those things. I think we can always learn more from it and make sure that we educate the client afterwards.
Jack Jostes [00:12:34]:
So Mike, tell us a little bit more, how will the actual training content be delivered?
Mike Wagner [00:12:39]:
So the training is different, which is nice. So traditionally, not just the industry, but SIMA has always developed video content for people to watch for their training exercises. After that, it's always a great idea to do hands on activities with your staff. But we're doing something a little bit different. So we're creating it through Adobe and we're creating an actual module, well, modules in learning management system. So it's kind of what bigger corporations do. We're just doing on maybe a more interactive scale. So we're using a lot of mixing and matching tools, knowledge checks.
Mike Wagner [00:13:15]:
We're incorporating videos, photographs, we'll do some simulations. So we're help giving that piece of, hey, we have the access on here to do our basic training on a computer, tablet, phone, whatever the company wants to use, they can give access to their employees. And then after that, we've created a bunch of checklists and resources for them to take to help perform their hands on activities as well.
13:38 - Easy Access to Training with Shorter Modules
Jack Jostes [00:13:38]:
So will each employee. Let's pretend that I had 100 employees. Would each of my employees log in and go through that learning management system?
Mike Wagner [00:13:48]:
Yes, so they would. And there's going to be a pretty easy access system, which is nice. They're also going to get basic assessments for the company to document and track as well. But what I think makes us a little bit better is that we're breaking it into shorter modules. So it's not like along with that, we're also focusing on the role. So this first roll where we're talking sidewalk crew basic training, we're talking about crew people who shovel, use snow blowers, maybe use small ride on equipment to take care of sidewalks or apply materials. So by doing this, and then we're breaking it up into different sub modules, shorter ones. So we had a lot of discussions on, you know, how long do we want this training, how much time do we want it to take? And I think the best feedback we have was we want to break it up enough so someone can go and assign training to an individual on a morning when they start their shift, they can take 20 minutes, do a module, maybe they do it the next day or the following week so they can spread these modules out.
Mike Wagner [00:14:47]:
But also what's important with it is if they run into personnel issues, if they have someone not performing a job properly, they can go back and reassign a specific module instead of the entire training again. So they can really hone in and focus on how can we improve what these individuals are doing to make sure that the job is getting done right.
Jack Jostes [00:15:06]:
The other thing I really like about that. And we have a learning management system at Ramblin Jackson. We call it Ramblin Jackson University.
Mike Wagner [00:15:13]:
Sure.
Jack Jostes [00:15:13]:
And so part of our onboarding is online. And that I found frees up more time for coaching around things like time management or planning or communication, things like that. And the training, a lot of the training of what we do can be accomplished through the learning management system. And then, like you said, you can reassign specific modules as needed to help people if they're struggling with a certain aspect of it.
Mike Wagner [00:15:43]:
Sure. Yeah. And one of the other things we did, too, is we're using full audio as well. So individuals have the option to use audio on all their slides or turn that audio off. So what we're really looking at, too, Cheryl, specifically at SIMA, I really looking at how do we address everybody's different learning styles? Everybody's a little bit different. And people are effective in all sorts of different ways. But by using this interactive learning management system, by using resources that people can take and perform hands on activities, and then also the other component of making sure that our supervisors and managers can also go back and monitor the exercises that are being performed, the training that's being completed, we have documentation, we have results, we have progress of learners. So it's really trying to encompass all that.
Mike Wagner [00:16:31]:
And how can we basically give people the resources to plug this into an organization for somebody that can just run with it? They don't have to worry about anything else, such as trying to track document sign off sheets, training sheets, creating any content, creating resources. They can just take this entire program and run with it.
16:53 - Importance of Documentation for Snow and Ice Programs
Jack Jostes [00:16:53]:
Well, yeah. And then you do have that digital documentation for each employee if they've taken it or not. And that can help you. How do you see this helping landscape or snow and landscape companies? Should there be a slip and fall or should there be a legal issue? How does this help protect them?
Mike Wagner [00:17:13]:
I think through my experience, documentation is probably the number one important administrative task of any snow and ice program or safety and training program. Much of what I've seen and done falls back on documentation. And if, you know, if a slip and fall happens, everybody's going to want to know when crews were on site, what they were doing. And the question always comes up, is the employee trained to perform their job? And always, I've never not had that question asked. So this is one of those resources that people can fall back on. If something comes up, they can pull their training documents and say, hey, I know this entire crew is trained on these functions. Or, you know, if it becomes bigger than that they may ask, well, is the supervisor trained to lead this? That's one thing they're going to do is, look, was the supervisor trained to lead this type of operation? Because as we get more into the training, that's what we're going to be doing, is creating more of the leadership roles and supervision roles. So it's going to help address all of those potential gaps.
Jack Jostes [00:18:16]:
Cool. Well, I love it. And so is this actually being launched at the Symposium?
Mike Wagner [00:18:22]:
So we're going to be demoing out the training at the Symposium. So they're going to be setting up tablets for people to demo out the software, try it. We're really hoping for some feedback from the individuals that want to go through it.
Jack Jostes [00:18:35]:
Is that going on throughout the whole Symposium, or is there a specific date and time that people should go?
Mike Wagner [00:18:40]:
So, throughout the Symposium? So they're gonna have it there just for people to walk up whatever they want. I do know that they are supposed to be making a designated area for it where it's gonna be identified, that this is what it's for. And then I'm supposed to be talking about it at the show as well.
Jack Jostes [00:18:54]:
Okay. And then, so what, what day and time are you speaking?
Mike Wagner [00:18:58]:
So I am speaking on that Wednesday. I think my time was changed on the salt usage. I'm gonna really focus on how we can reduce our usage, but educate the client. So I think a lot of it, there's a lot of disconnect between companies and the client. I know the ones that are really succeeding right now, the snow and ice removal companies are the ones that are taking the time to teach their clients what they're doing and why they're doing it. A lot of the times companies will make changes without necessarily educating their client. They might tell them, but at the end of the day, that clients, depending on the snow and ice expert to know what they're doing and to do it the best they can. But sometimes if, you know, if a client sees that we aren't servicing their property for an hour extra time, and all of a sudden we're using less material, they're going to ask questions.
Mike Wagner [00:19:48]:
If we don't educate them why we're doing it. Specifically here in Colorado, we're starting to really move more towards the liquid pre treatment, which has been done in the Midwest and the northeast for a long time. But it's new to us here because of our environmental challenges. So, you know, if we get clients that move here, property managers that come from out of state, they don't really know our best practices. Here, as opposed to what they're used to. They might think we're not doing our job properly or anybody in the snow and ice industry.
20:15 - Challenges of Liquid Treatment in Dry Rocky Mountain Snow
Jack Jostes [00:20:15]:
Can you tell me more about that? What is it? Because I hear a lot of clients, like in Illinois, Wisconsin, using brine, a lot more than I'm seeing it used in Colorado. Would you agree?
Mike Wagner [00:20:28]:
Yeah, totally.
Jack Jostes [00:20:29]:
So what, what are the, what's the reason for that?
Mike Wagner [00:20:32]:
So brine's just like any other liquid we deal with, magnesium chlorides, calcium chlorides. There's a bunch others that use different additives. But what makes the mountain region the Rocky Mountain west so difficult is our dryness with our snow. So in traditional places like Midwest, the Midwest and the northeast, where it's much more humid during snow, the application of liquids is much more effective because we don't deal with the dry air or the dry snow, not being able to activate the liquids in the proper manner. So you need enough moisture falling in the snow and hitting the ground to really activate the liquid content, the chemicals in the spray, the brine or calcium chloride, whatever you're using. So, but in Colorado, Utah, Montana, Idaho, all these Rocky mountain states, we are extremely dry, so we don't have that moisture content in our snow. So what can happen is we might pre treat the surface with a liquid. If we don't have enough liquid in our, moisture in our snow, it'll turn that pre sprayed liquid into a sheet of ice because it's not activated by the moisture in the snow, because we are just that dry.
Mike Wagner [00:21:41]:
So it's taken a lot of experimenting with it, even. You know, we've had it on the public and private level. There's been a lot of tests with brine, a lot of unsuccessful attempts that have made road conditions just treacherous. So it's really that refining process of trying to figure out what chemicals work the best.
22:01 - Prioritizing Quality, Education, and Communication with Clients
Jack Jostes [00:22:01]:
Cool. So will your talk be geared for people from Colorado, or what will you be speaking on?
Mike Wagner [00:22:10]:
So, I think so, as I focus on how we don't sacrifice our quality of service to the client based on how we use our, our salts or our chlorides. I think the biggest part of it is so many in the industry, and even if they don't, we're still educating ourselves on the use of it and how we go about selecting a material, how we go about calibrating equipment and where we put the material down and where we don't. But it's that gap in. All right, even as we're working with this process to try and make it better or to find new solutions. We have to make sure we're working as partners with our clients, not just us doing what we do in the snow and ice industry and having to evolve and adapt and innovate without letting them know exactly where we're at in the process. Because it is going to constantly evolve. As long as legislation keeps changing, as long as we're still trying to protect our environment and make it better, it will always be one of those topics we should be having regular conversations with the client on. So I'm hoping to work with the group that sits in in this education session on how do we make sure that we translate what we're doing into a great communicative process with the client to ensure that we're working on the same page, that everybody understands each other, that we're trying to tackle the same problems.
Mike Wagner [00:23:28]:
Just we got to do it together. We can't do it separate. We can't expect one side to know what the other one's thinking if we don't bridge that gap.
Jack Jostes [00:23:36]:
So, Mike, so for folks listening who want to get involved, are there volunteering opportunities or how can we get involved?
Mike Wagner [00:23:43]:
So the great thing with an association with like the Snow and Ice Management association is they really build on their volunteerism with their membership group. Not a lot of associations get their members as involved as SIMA does. I've been part of many professional associations, but they do a great job of finding the opportunities that people would really be interested in, as well as putting enough information out there for people to know what they can and can't get involved with. They're frequent on emails. They make sure they put things on their website, they put it in their newsletters that they send out. A lot of the times you'll see them in their magazine snow business as well. So they make sure that it's in front of their readers, their content readers, as well as other members in the association. They put it out there for everybody to be a part of.
Mike Wagner [00:24:34]:
They definitely don't just lean on their experience in the industry to create everything they need to, which is awesome.
Jack Jostes [00:24:41]:
So if folks want to get involved in volunteering, who should we contact?
Mike Wagner [00:24:44]:
So Cheryl is a big advocate of volunteering. Sometimes it can transition on the project and who's assigned to it. So because of their roles with Sima, they have people that are assigned to different roles, but the best way to do it is going on their website, sima.org. they've got all that volunteer opportunity and contact information on there to get involved.
25:05 - Prioritizing Quality, Education, and Communication with Clients
Jack Jostes [00:25:05]:
Cool. Well, Mike, well, thanks for coming on the show. Hopefully I'll see you at the Symposium. We're going to be actually having a booth there. Ramblin Jackson has a booth number 1428. I'm also doing a Snack and Chat on the 26th on sales, and then on the 27th I'll be doing the Breakfast Jamboree on recruiting How to Attract Hell Yes Employees with social media. And we're having a nachos and networking event.
Mike Wagner [00:25:34]:
Excellent. Sounds like a good time.
Jack Jostes [00:25:36]:
Do you like nachos?
Mike Wagner [00:25:37]:
Love nachos.
Jack Jostes [00:25:37]:
Cool. Well, come and have some nachos with us on the 26th. I'll put the details for that in our show notes. It's just kind of a casual thing. I'm getting together people who listen to our podcasts and clients. Just a little mini networking event when there's nothing else going on.
Mike Wagner [00:25:53]:
Sounds like a great time. Yeah. I appreciate you having me on the show as well, Jack. I really appreciate it.
Jack Jostes [00:25:57]:
Yeah. So, Mike, for folks listening who want to network with you, how can we get in touch?
Mike Wagner [00:26:04]:
Yeah, so contact information. I'm on LinkedIn fairly regularly, both personally for Designscapes and my own business expedition as well. Just love growing my network and being a part of the associations and meeting new members and new followers and new people who want to get involved.
Jack Jostes [00:26:20]:
Cool. Well, we'll put a link to your LinkedIn in the chat or in the not in the chat, in the show notes so people listening can go down and click on that. And thanks again for coming on the Landscaper’s Guide and for everything you're doing with this safety program.
Mike Wagner [00:26:33]:
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
Jack Jostes [00:26:36]:
Hey, it's Jack Jostes. Thanks for listening to this interview. I can't wait to see Mike speak at the SIMA Symposium. And again, we're going to be there at booth 1428. And I want to talk to you. If you're going to that show, stop by our booth. We'll give you a bag of beef jerky and have a conversation on the podcast. We're doing little micro interviews, like five minute conversations.
Jack Jostes [00:26:57]:
So if you've got a cool sales, marketing, or leadership story to share, or if you know someone that I should talk to, and you're at the SIMA Symposium, just stop by our booth and check out landscapersguide.com/events. See our events page. We have some cool things that we can bring you to, like our nachos and networking event. You're welcome to come. It's a casual networking event. We're going to be doing our breakfast jamboree and a snack and chat. So check it out: Landscapersguide.com/events.
Jack Jostes [00:27:27]:
And hey, I look forward to seeing you at the SIMA Symposium or some other events. Check out landscapersguide.com/events in our show notes. And again, my name is Jack Jostes. Thanks for listening to the Landscaper’s Guide. It's been a pleasure talking with you today, and I look forward to talking with you next week.
Show Notes:
Watch the full episode + see the transcript at: https://landscapersguide.com/podcast/
Tell us where to send your beef jerky: https://landscapersguide.com/toolbox
Come visit us at the SIMA Symposium: https://landscapersguide.com/sima/
Check out Mike Wagner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-wagner-mba-cafm-csp-asm-asca-c-22474789/
Download the SIMA Safety Standard Documentation: sima.org/standards