Robyn Schmitz [00:00:00]:
Mark Bradley and Mike Lysecki. They taught a concept many years ago during an educational session called Super Profit. It's essentially how much revenue does your business need to generate to offset your overhead and hit your target profit for the year?
Scott Parker [00:00:17]:
We return calls same day. It's our business policy. And I'm the owner, I'm the point of contact. First phone call during the project. Post project. We never really used it as a sales tool. It was right there all those years, and we never really told people about it. We just did it.
Robyn Schmitz [00:00:38]:
We have such a blessing in our industry that we have literal gratification with what we do. There's such a literal gratification that comes from designing and building and then caring for a space that's going to enhance a family's life if we do it right.
01:25 – Meet Robyn & Scott: Different Paths to Landscape Success
Jack Jostes [00:00:55]:
Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Landscaper's Guide Podcast. Today, we're in the Ramblin Jackson video studio in Lyons, Colorado, and I have two of my clients here. We have Scott Parker from Parker Landscape Design and Robyn from High Prairie Outdoors. So thank you, thanks for coming.
Robyn Schmitz [00:01:14]:
Thanks so much for having us. We're excited to be here.
Scott Parker [00:01:17]:
Thanks so much Jack.
Jack Jostes [00:01:17]:
Tell me just first I thought it would be interesting to hear a little background about your company is and what do you do?
Robyn Schmitz [00:01:25]:
Sure. So High Prairie Outdoors is in Kansas City. That's the market we serve. And we serve high-style residential clients by designing, building, and nourishing high-style outdoor spaces. So we're focused all on longevity and kind of lasting enjoyment. That's our whole niche.
Jack Jostes [00:01:41]:
What do you mean by that? So longevity.
Robyn Schmitz [00:01:43]:
Yep.
Jack Jostes [00:01:43]:
Tell me, what does that mean?
Robyn Schmitz [00:01:45]:
We build with old world craftsmanship. So we went to Europe and learned how they craft stone pavilions and patios and those things. And we took those construction methods back to America and melded them with modern-day scientific engineering to create our own processes.
Jack Jostes [00:02:04]:
Wow. Cool. Yeah. And Scott, tell us a little bit about Parker Landscape.
Scott Parker [00:02:07]:
Not as exciting as Robyn’s company, it sounds like. But out of New Jersey, we're a design build company, and my 23rd year, we service 100% residential.
Jack Jostes [00:02:27]:
And your family, you grew up in the landscape business?
Scott Parker [00:02:27]:
Correct.
Jack Jostes [00:02:28]:
Tell us a little bit about that.
Scott Parker [00:02:29]:
My grandfather had a 16-acre garden center that they started in 1948, and they were growing plants, and also a retail garden center, and with a landscape division. And then 23 years ago, I went on my own and formed my own design-build company.
Jack Jostes [00:02:46]:
That's cool. And Robyn, did you grow up in landscape business or how did you get into this?
Robyn Schmitz [00:02:50]:
I didn't. So my mom was a florist, and I grew up on a cow ranch, so I was not afraid of hard work and weather, and I was around plants. So in a roundabout way, I was always born to love something like this. I actually went to college for journalism and was an all-American journalist before I transferred to landscaping, but I was putting myself through school working at a garden center, and I loved my job. I loved creating spaces for people, and so I switched over to horticulture as a junior or senior.
Jack Jostes [00:03:21]:
That's cool. I studied journalism and worked at a garden center.
Robyn Schmitz [00:03:25]:
Oh, really?
Jack Jostes [00:03:25]:
Yeah.
Robyn Schmitz [00:03:26]:
Small world.
Jack Jostes [00:03:27]:
I did not know that about you. Yeah, yeah. I studied theater and journalism and that during that time, I was doing a lot of marketing for my theater department, and I built our Facebook page. They still have it. And I just kind of figured out social media, and then came to the dark side of marketing after college.
Robyn Schmitz [00:03:46]:
That’s awesome. Love it.
Jack Jostes [00:03:46]:
Yeah. I don't know. We have a lot of people who have a journalism background at Ramblin Jackson.
Robyn Schmitz [00:03:51]:
Oh, yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:03:52]:
Well, that's cool. So I was curious. So what were. You know, you guys came out here for the Vision and Video Retreat. So we're in Colorado. We got to spend the morning together. I worked with you, Scott, yesterday. We did a whole day of video.
Jack Jostes [00:04:09]:
We had a great time. We got a ton of video. Scott brought a ton of different wardrobes.
Robyn Schmitz [00:04:14]:
Love it.
Jack Jostes [00:04:15]:
So we got 11 videos done yesterday.
Robyn Schmitz [00:04:19]:
Oh, wow.
Jack Jostes [00:04:20]:
With four wardrobe changes and the fly.
Scott Parker [00:04:23]:
And the fly, yes.
Jack Jostes [00:04:24]:
There was a fly running around, flying around, and Scott killed it today.
Scott Parker [00:04:29]:
We think.
Jack Jostes [00:04:30]:
We think he may revise. And we'll have to check. Yeah, we'll have to see.
04:34 – Long-Term Projects Need Long-Term Motivation
Jack Jostes [00:04:34]:
So I was curious, you know, from the Vision Retreat from this morning, what were some of your takeaways for High Prairie?
Robyn Schmitz [00:04:40]:
We unpacked a little bit about continuing to empower and grow our next generation of crews and leaders. And so we unpacked our bonus program a little bit and talked about incentivizing people on a more regular basis, such as quarterly versus our annual bonus program. And, you know, you guys talked about unpacking when the rewards are too far apart. If, for some reason, a team didn't hit a target, that could be really demotivating if the next opportunity for that big win isn't for a full year or a very long time. So one of our big takeaways is let's revisit that program again and how we're rewarding our people, maybe in a more frequent basis to help them feel the Love a little more often.
Jack Jostes [00:05:24]:
Yeah. You know, so one of the things that's similar about your business and my business is many of your projects take six months.
Robyn Schmitz [00:05:31]:
Yep. They're long-term projects.
Jack Jostes [00:05:33]:
So they're a long-term project. So when clients work with Ramblin Jackson, there's an initial build phase where we're building your website, your sales process, we're getting into your branding, your 3 Reasons to Buy, all the SEO. And it takes five to six months typically. And we have something called The Gold Standard Bonus that I shared with you. And we advertise this on our website. So what I like about this is it's communicated to our client, and then the team knows it too. So we're all striving to get the project done on time, in budget. It needs to meet quality standards, which are documented. They're not like, how does Jack feel today about the website?
Robyn Schmitz [00:06:11]:
Moving goalposts.
Jack Jostes [00:06:13]:
Yeah. And then what was the last thing in budget? And then, oh, happy customer, an 8, 9 or a 10 on our Net Promoter Score. So to me, that incentivizes a lot of the right things of like getting it done on time, getting it done well, getting it done profitably and having a happy customer.
Robyn Schmitz [00:06:33]:
Absolutely.
Jack Jostes [00:06:34]:
So those are. That's kind of business to me in a nutshell. Like you need to do those four things. I mean, there's obviously way more to it, but what I found is that that then has an incentive for the people to get that phase of it done and then they start the next thing. And then our growth plan team, which is similar to a maintenance team, also has quarterly incentives.
07:08 – Aligning Sales & Production With Shared Goals
Jack Jostes [00:07:08]:
Scott, I was curious, you had some experience with that, though? Was it at your dad's company or was it at your company where there weren't quarterly and you realize that?
Scott Parker [00:07:08]:
Yeah. So my dad's company and also when I was at United Technologies, the sales teams were commission-driven and the operations staffing had no incentive to push production. Sales teams need. Need the operations department to work together. And there was a lot of, a lot of pushback. Operations doesn't make any more money pushing more sales. And the sales team needs to push sales to make money. And it caused a lot of conflict.
Scott Parker [00:07:39]:
So aligning the two, the goals of production and sales is really important.
Jack Jostes [00:07:48]:
One other thing that I'm doing is tiered commissions also. So from a sales point of. This is something my agency coach Jason Swank taught me was, you know, like, I don't know what your. If you're comfortable sharing what your new revenue, what, what your new revenue goal is for the year.
Robyn Schmitz [00:08:07]:
Yeah. So we're gonna land right around. Our goal is 7.8 million.
Jack Jostes [00:08:10]:
And how much of that is maintenance?
Robyn Schmitz [00:08:12]:
About 30%. 30 to 40%.
Jack Jostes [00:08:15]:
Okay.
Robyn Schmitz [00:08:15]:
It's in between.
Jack Jostes [00:08:16]:
So how much new revenue is the sales team looking to?
Robyn Schmitz [00:08:23]:
Our target for the maintenance division is four to six new maintenance clients. But that sounds maybe strange to a lot of our peers in the industry because we tend to do super large estate type fine gardening. So, an average maintenance client for us is going to be $30,000 to $70,000 pretty easily. So it's a little bit maybe abnormal to say four to six clients, but that's why.
08:50 – Incentives That Drive Results (Not Just Bonuses)
Jack Jostes [00:08:50]:
Well, I guess what I was getting at is that maybe when they reach a certain number within the year that everything beyond that is at a higher commission percentage. And so that's something I'm working on in my own business because there's a certain amount of overhead we have where if we have a certain amount of customers like, oh, our profitability comes into this next tier.
Robyn Schmitz [00:09:14]:
Super profit.
Jack Jostes [00:09:15]:
Yeah.
Robyn Schmitz [00:09:15]:
Have you ever heard the phrase super profit?
Jack Jostes [00:09:16]:
I have actually, yeah.
Robyn Schmitz [00:09:17]:
Not my phrase.
Scott Parker [00:09:18]:
Never heard that.
Robyn Schmitz [00:09:19]:
Yeah. So we were actually talking earlier today during the Retreat about LeanScaper and Mark Bradley, and Mike Lysecki. They taught a concept many years ago during an educational session called Super Profit. And it's exactly what you're describing, Jack. It's essentially how much revenue does your business need to generate to offset your overhead and hit your target profit for the year? So let's say it's a million dollars and you need to offset a square number.
Robyn Schmitz [00:09:49]:
The sooner your team hits that in the year, let's pretend you hit it in October, November, because you've been firing on all cylinders and eliminating waste. Anything beyond that point and any dollar beyond that point, your profit is no longer the 10 to 15 or 20% you were aiming for. It's that plus the overhead percentage that you've recovered already. So you have what's called super profit. And then you can afford to pay extra love to the people who helped you earn it, so they get extra.
Jack Jostes [00:10:17]:
Well, one of the ways I do something similar. So we do net profit sharing at Ramblin Jackson where we have. And we also do it quarterly. And so you have to have worked here for a year to be eligible for that.
Robyn Schmitz [00:10:31]:
Okay, interesting.
Jack Jostes [00:10:32]:
And so that's partly it's a retention strategy of like, hey, you know, keep going, like, let's get past year one. Because partly when you do it unlocks this new bonus that. And I. I used to do it annually.
Robyn Schmitz [00:10:45]:
Yep.
Jack Jostes [00:10:46]:
And I found that when I changed it quarterly, everyone was like, oh, we've got like 45 days left in the quarter and I see where we're at. And it helped incentivize the actions that people could take, whether from sales, upsells, or eliminating costs. Maybe we just need to make a decision on something. And when we're over a certain percentage, I guess we're hitting the super profit area.
Robyn Schmitz [00:11:13]:
I love that.
Jack Jostes [00:11:14]:
Then the amount goes up higher. But also, I'll share that this quarter we're not paying it because last quarter we didn't hit those numbers. Yeah, but they're also. It doesn't mean though that those gold standard bonuses aren't paid. So that's why I like doing it is because that's more of a merit based thing of like, did you do these things?
Robyn Schmitz [00:11:35]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:11:35]:
And then the net profit has other factors that people can influence, but not, not all of them.
Robyn Schmitz [00:11:42]:
I love it. Well, you know, a good bonus program, they always say, should be tied to the things the people who are receiving it can control.
Jack Jostes [00:11:49]:
Right.
Robyn Schmitz [00:11:50]:
Because otherwise it's a reactionary thing and they don't motivated by the program. So you're right on. You're spot on.
11:55 – High-Ticket Enhancements: The “Habitat” Strategy
Jack Jostes [00:11:55]:
I was curious, Scott, what was your takeaway from the Vision Retreat? So we talked about quite a bit. What were, what were some of yours?
Scott Parker [00:12:05]:
Pretty much Robyn, striking my interest because we're not growing our company, we decided not to grow our company anymore. So we're looking at efficiencies and synergistic services and products that we could easily integrate and that our customers love. So Robyn had some good ideas that I'm going to brainstorm on.
Jack Jostes [00:12:29]:
Robyn did. Are you cool sharing any of those today?
Robyn Schmitz [00:12:33]:
Sure, sure. So our company, about a year ago started trying to find ways to provide more value to the clients we already serve in an area that was at least missing in our market. If we're designing and building these beautiful outdoor spaces and we're trying to actually get people to go enjoy those spaces outdoors, what were the little final steps that were needed to help them arrive there? And for us, it was beginning to curate the value added. The artistry, the sculptures. Maybe it's the wellness features, a well designed and implemented sauna or fire feature that they didn't initially do during the build. And so what we did is we began listening to the consumer. Right. Isn't that where we always start with innovation is listen to where there's a gap in what people need and then going, how do we create this trifecta? Of a win.
Robyn Schmitz [00:13:24]:
It serves the client for something they truly, genuinely want. It benefits the business because it's something that we can provide and create a win. And if I'm really thinking trifecta, I'm also thinking about my employees, and if there's a way for them to get a little bit extra commission or win, we've created a trifecta. And so we launched what's called Habitat by High Prairie, which is a curated collection that's private and exclusive to just our limited clientele and our collaboration partners. That's all. It's curated from all over the world, but it's not always available elsewhere. Parts of it might be, and those things are those sculptures and pieces of art and little enhancers to the space.
Robyn Schmitz [00:14:09]:
So someone like Scott has this fabulous business in the Jersey area, and he's not necessarily wanting to continue selling more projects. How could Scott provide more value to the client he's already serving? Great fit. Great idea to maybe pursue something like that.
Jack Jostes [00:14:26]:
I love it. Yeah. And I love that.
14:28 – The Power of Print: Magazines, Dan Kennedy & Marketing to the Affluent
Jack Jostes [00:14:28]:
So you have your own magazine?
Robyn Schmitz [00:14:30]:
Correct.
Jack Jostes [00:14:31]:
And it's available exclusively to customers?
Robyn Schmitz [00:14:33]:
Yep. We keep it private.
Jack Jostes [00:14:35]:
Some of your partners.
Robyn Schmitz [00:14:36]:
Collaboration, yeah, collaboration partners.
Jack Jostes [00:14:38]:
So tell me more about that and what influence did Dan Kennedy have on it? So I've got a book here that I want to talk about is the No B.S. Marketing to the Affluent: No Holds Barred, Take No Prisoners, Guide to Getting Really Rich by Dan Kennedy. And so we've both read this. I'm actually reading this the second time.
Robyn Schmitz [00:14:59]:
Love it.
Jack Jostes [00:14:59]:
Because I'm hiring Dan. I'm doing a meeting one on one with Dan.
Robyn Schmitz [00:15:02]:
Love it.
Jack Jostes [00:15:03]:
And I'm like, Dan, what should I read to prepare? And he's like, oh, you got to read this book again.
Scott Parker [00:15:08]:
I think I have to get.
Jack Jostes [00:15:10]:
You do. Everybody, everyone watching and listening needs to read this book. It actually quick aside helped me decide to focus on the landscape industry.
Robyn Schmitz [00:15:18]:
Very cool.
Jack Jostes [00:15:20]:
And in particular, the top 20% of the landscape industry, which is landscape companies making over $1 million in revenue. And then taking that a step further to the top, like 5%.
Robyn Schmitz [00:15:31]:
Sure.
Jack Jostes [00:15:32]:
So. But part of it was like figuring out, well, I'm just curious. You have a print magazine. Dan's all about multimedia. This book talks about print newsletters.
Robyn Schmitz [00:15:42]:
Yep.
Jack Jostes [00:15:42]:
Did that influence your decision? I haven't asked you about that.
Robyn Schmitz [00:15:45]:
That's a really great question. I think. Absolutely. You know, sometimes you get exposed to an idea enough times that maybe you don't implement it the first time you hear it, but then you process it and you think about it. And I think absolutely, where we're going as a society is that multi touch and sometimes tangible versus electronic. Balancing those things and then providing those ideas in a way like that. Absolutely was influenced by the book.
Jack Jostes [00:16:14]:
Yeah, me too. So I like 10 years ago. Yeah, it was close to 10 years ago. Got to work. I got to speak at one of Dan's events.
Robyn Schmitz [00:16:23]:
Love it.
Jack Jostes [00:16:24]:
Just not because I deserve to, but because I had a relationship with somebody who worked there and I got in. I was one of the worst speakers, but it inspired me tremendously.
Scott Parker [00:16:36]:
Jack, can I ask you, what is Dan's background?
Jack Jostes [00:16:38]:
So Dan is. Some people consider him the godfather of direct response marketing. And so he's one of the highest-paid copywriters and marketing strategists in the world. So not industry specific, notific, but here's one industry-specific takeaway that I was just reading about. The super affluent, which is the top 1%, the infamous, much politicized top 1%, spend over $500,000 a year on home improvements. So when you're talking about, you know, this magazine and having people who might spend $30,000 to $70,000 a year, they're probably in that ultra.
Robyn Schmitz [00:17:28]:
Maybe.
Jack Jostes [00:17:29]:
Maybe, I don't know. So it was. That was just an interesting takeaway was how from this book, different income brackets will.
Scott Parker [00:17:38]:
It makes sense, remember we were talking about it makes sense based on what that equates to. What did they say that average person's making?
Jack Jostes [00:17:45]:
Oh, okay, well, so that,
Scott Parker [00:17:46]:
That's a lot of money.
Jack Jostes [00:17:47]:
That group had an average annual income of over $1.2 million and a net worth of $25 million to $100 million. Yeah, well, yeah, because. So your back was in finance, and so you were, you were, you were quickly calculating even if they were making 3%.
Scott Parker [00:18:05]:
Yeah. Interest a year in the bank. So if someone's making $25 million a year and they're earning 3% interest, that's $750,000 of interest income from doing nothing. So it makes sense that they may drop half a million dollars because it's basically they're at an income level where they could easily afford that. Yeah.
18:31 – Why We REALLY Love the Landscape Industry
Jack Jostes [00:18:31]:
Well, so money aside, one of the things I know that the three of us share, though, because it can seem like when you read this book title or and we talk about this, that that's the whole reason we're doing this. But I learned, you know, it's not. So I wanted to hear from you, Scott, what do you love about running your landscape company?
Scott Parker [00:18:50]:
Now it's gotten to the point of, you know, trying to make customers happy. When I first started, you know, wanted to make a lot of money and. But now I really, I've always taken enjoyment in making customers happy. But as I get older, it's really rewarding to see people smiling and get repeat business. So.
Jack Jostes [00:19:11]:
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And what about you, Robyn? What do you love about your business the most?
Robyn Schmitz [00:19:17]:
We have such a blessing in our industry that we have literal gratification with what we do. There's such a literal gratification that comes from designing and building and then caring for a space that's going to enhance a family's life if we do it right. So for me, as a business perspective, there's a two kind of prong approach to my absolute favorite part of what we do. One is we get to do this every day. We're building these amazing environments for families where when they've had a bad day, if we've done our job, as soon as they get home, they've got a sense of peace, de stress, relaxation because they have this sanctuary, as cheesy and markety as that sounds. But it's their space. How they need to relax and connect as a family Thing number one. Thing number two is our people internally at High Prairie, growing them as a professional and building careers that they could be proud of in an industry that maybe previous generations considered hole diggers, ditch diggers.
Robyn Schmitz [00:20:21]:
We're saying not anymore. We're artisans, we're craftspeople, we're educated, we're getting degrees, we understand science and engineering. And we're on the precipice of this different industry because of these things. So growing those people is absolutely right up there with helping families transform environments.
Jack Jostes [00:20:40]:
Cool. I think I like that. And so what's hard about. So you're, you're. You're. What's. What's hard about being at the. Where you're at in your business, I guess in your, in your.
Jack Jostes [00:20:50]:
In your growth where. And just share with us maybe where are you?
Robyn Schmitz [00:20:53]:
Yeah.
20:53 – Business Adolescence: Leading Through the $2M–$10M Gap
Jack Jostes [00:20:53]:
We had talked about business adolescence and business maturity and things. Maybe you could recap on some of those ideas.
Robyn Schmitz [00:21:00]:
High Prairie is a raging adolescent. With all of the hormonal outbursts. No, I'm kidding. But you know, so we talk about in our industry how we have kind of these, these levels of maturity as a. Or levers. I'll say not even maturity. I think they always say that a lifestyle business is 1 to 2 million, approximately.
Robyn Schmitz [00:21:23]:
They call that a lifestyle business because it can largely be run by a talented owner. And that owner can have a pretty nice quality of life, although working hard and a pretty nice income at that level. So that's kind of the entry level phase. The lifestyle business. There is a no man's land or an adolescence phase between somewhere around $2 million and somewhere around $10 million in our industry. That is a stretch of businesses trying to transition from owner run and operated to a leadership team running and operating an organization that you have to kind of work out all the kinks of that. The right people on the bus, the right operating procedures, you're building an identity.
Robyn Schmitz [00:22:06]:
So instead of Scott or myself leading the charge, whether it's sales or operations, you have a team you intently trust and they're executing at the same level. Or if we've done our job better than what we would have so High Prairie, One of our struggles is we're right in that bucket, you know, right around 7 million. And we are learning to develop the leadership team we have internally and try to coach them up and also trying to learn where we need to supplement that team in order to empower them and us to get through this tough adolescence phase and get on the other side of it.
Jack Jostes [00:22:43]:
What are some of the books you're reading or the peer groups? What are the resources? I partly just want people to hear about them in case they don't know. Know.
Robyn Schmitz [00:22:50]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:22:51]:
What do you. How. How are you learning to do that? Because you haven't run a million-dollar company before with a leadership team right?
Robyn Schmitz [00:22:58]:
Exactly.
Jack Jostes [00:22:59]:
So you're learning to do this.
Robyn Schmitz [00:23:00]:
We are.
Jack Jostes [00:23:01]:
Yourself. And then you're also helping other people learn to do their roles.
Robyn Schmitz [00:23:04]:
Yep, absolutely.
Jack Jostes [00:23:04]:
So how are you, how are you learning to do that?
Robyn Schmitz [00:23:07]:
Yeah. So there's so many resources to. Available. Available to us as an industry. We are in a peer group. It's the ACE peer groups through McFarland, Stanford and The Grow group. We absolutely love our peer group. It's a group of similar sized businesses but multi specialization, which is really a nice thing because there's different paradigms that come from that and from different markets.
Robyn Schmitz [00:23:29]:
So there's easy open share. And because we're all in that same similar adolescence phase, though sometimes in that peer group it's more learning what each other's been through thus far. But our coaches in those peer groups have coached organizations all the way up through $50 million plus. So that's where they come into and help us fetter through that. We are new members of LeanScaper, which is recently launched as a community as well. Again, I had just mentioned Super Profit before. That was a Mark Bradley, Mike Lysecki. Thing.
Robyn Schmitz [00:24:03]:
LeanScaper just launched this year, actually in January of 25. And it is a platform and program, both, I'm going to say, that essentially helps contractors just like us and contractors of any size, whether it's $500,000 or $50 million, identify the systems and processes to more smoothly operate an organization for the ultimate win, which would be stable, healthy, profiting, growing people. Right. That's the magic number. So again, another resource. Those guys have been there and done that. And don't we all learn the most from people who have already been there?
Scott Parker [00:24:42]:
Saves you a lot of time.
Jack Jostes [00:24:44]:
Yeah, it does. And that was, I mean, part of the reason I wanted to bring you guys together is you each have different strengths and different aspects of your business. And it was great to just spend some time hearing you guys share ideas back and forth today. And yes, that's one of my favorite things about the landscape industry is that it's like one of the most generous industries out there with ideas of like, here's how to do it. Not every industry is like that.
Robyn Schmitz [00:25:09]:
Yeah, agree.
Jack Jostes [00:25:10]:
So that's, that's something that I find rewarding and that kudos to you for, for investing in those things and soaking it up.
Robyn Schmitz [00:25:19]:
And we love to learn. We're learners.
25:25 – What’s Actually Working in Sales (That Most Ignore)
Jack Jostes [00:25:25]:
What would be if you could share with the audience. I want to ask both of you this question. Something that's working in sales and marketing that you realize now, you know, years into your business that maybe you do every time you make a sale or it's just part of what you do that you wish you had known 15 years ago.
Scott Parker [00:25:45]:
So the first thing that hit me when you asked that question was it's my 23rd year of doing this and it was right in front of my nose the entire time. And we never used it to our advantage, which was we return call same day. It's our business policy and I'm the owner, I'm the point of contact. First phone call during the project. Post project. We never really use it as a sales tool. And it was Jack's company that said to us when I think I asked, you know, we want some sort of competitive advantage on our website to, to tell customers. And it was right there all those years.
Scott Parker [00:26:27]:
And we never really told people about it. We just, we just did it.
Jack Jostes [00:26:32]:
Yeah, well, that's, that's the main thing that I do.
Scott Parker [00:26:37]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:26:37]:
Is I ask people questions and figure out what they're good at. And our team, you know, we ask people these questions and we've built processes to ask these Questions and then extract out of you, what do you do really well. And a lot of times it's really basic stuff.
Scott Parker [00:26:53]:
Yes.
Jack Jostes [00:26:53]:
Yeah.
Scott Parker [00:26:53]:
A lot of times you're. I'm in the trenches. A lot of times my wife might say, why are you doing it that way? And I'm like, you know what? This is so simple. You know, she's right. I'm doing it. I'm running like a crazy person and I'm not really seeing clearly. And you know, she'll, we'll change a process that's, you know, oh, duh, we should have been doing it that way.
Jack Jostes [00:27:17]:
Well, I want, so I want to pause on that idea because I mean, so you, what you just said is so simple that somebody's probably driving right now listening to this and they didn't even hear it. You call people back the same day.
Scott Parker [00:27:30]:
Correct. And I did that from the probably the first day I formed my business. It's just the way I've always operated in prior jobs in a sales capacity. It's kind of a no brainer. But a lot of people don't do it in multiple industries.
Jack Jostes [00:27:48]:
They really don't. Especially in any kind of construction of anything. So if you can do that, I agree with you. That would be an incredible takeaway for people watching and listening to call people back the same day. What about you, Robyn? What would be one thing you're doing that is working that you want to share with people?
28:11 – The “Reverse Sales” Move That Builds Trust
Robyn Schmitz [00:28:11]:
So I'm going to give you an unexpected one. I think there's several we could talk about. But I'm going to give you something we haven't talked about today. It's being a reverse salesperson. So if you've ever dug into psychology at all and how it ties into sales, have you ever thought about how we get sales resistance triggered when we go into certain stores or certain environments? My example would be if you walk into a clothing store and that person beelines for you. Right. Some of us immediately are like, oh, don't talk to me. I'm just here to pick up a shirt or whatever it is.
Robyn Schmitz [00:28:48]:
But they're gonna come up and say, can I help you with anything today? You're almost saying no, thank you before they finish the sentence. That's subconscious sales resistance. You're just so used to being sold to today that certain phrases and certain things we do trigger this subconscious like, oh, they're trying to sell me now. So something that we're doing that I wouldn't say we've never done before, but full disclosure, we've Had a lot of updates to our sales team recently, and we're doing really well right now. Is that when we're educating people and empowering them, we're no longer using salesy phrases or trying to close the deal or using that like. So, Jack, when are we starting the project? Cheesy clothes. Oh, okay. Are you picking up what I'm laying down?
Jack Jostes [00:29:41]:
I'm picking up what you're laying down because personal story recently.
Robyn Schmitz [00:29:45]:
Love it.
Jack Jostes [00:29:46]:
Unfortunately, my dishwasher leaked, and we went through insurance, and the restoration company detected asbestos. So now we need to get. And we need to get an asbestos abatement company to come, and insurance requires that we get two people. And so one, the insurance company referred somebody, and then I had a referral from somebody I know. And speaking of the, like, the pen thing, dude hands me a contract, and he's like, all we need you to do is just initial some paperwork and consider it solved. And I'm like, I'm confused. I haven't received a proposal yet, and it was a work order. And I read.
Jack Jostes [00:30:28]:
And I read this thing. When I go to a restaurant, I read the receipt, and I even told a restaurant the other day, like, hey, you actually forgot to charge us for something. So I just read things. I'm like, why would I sign an agreement? And so it was so gross, Robyn, that I'm like, what do you like, do you think I can't read? Why would I sign this agreement with you when I. So anyways, keep going. But, yeah, when you gave me the pen.
Robyn Schmitz [00:30:56]:
So there's this subconscious. You just feel icky, right?
Jack Jostes [00:30:59]:
It was terrible.
Robyn Schmitz [00:31:01]:
Sometimes it's literal like that, but sometimes it's not literal. Sometimes it's really a salesperson trying to do a good job. So my sales team, for example, let's talk about the word checking in or following up. If it's something you've just presented, again, it's the same thing. There's nothing wrong with an attentive salesperson. That's not the challenge here. The challenge for us as salespeople is to go. They're already feeling that, like, you're not really checking in on me, Scott.
Robyn Schmitz [00:31:30]:
You're just trying to make the sell. So let's be authentic about it. So the idea behind it is we don't want to be the pushy salesperson. We want to focus on their problem and their solution. But also with a little bit of, we're okay if we sell this or not, because if we're the right fit for you, you're gonna choose us anyway. And if not, no hard feelings. You gotta do what's best for your family. Do you feel sales resistance when I say that to you? When I say, scott, if I'm the right fit for you, I am absolutely delighted.
Robyn Schmitz [00:31:58]:
But I'm also okay if you feel that I'm not. Because you're gonna do what works best.
Scott Parker [00:32:01]:
Because you're not pushy.
Robyn Schmitz [00:32:03]:
Exactly.
Jack Jostes [00:32:05]:
So I think knowing your situation and.
Robyn Schmitz [00:32:09]:
You mentioned there's been some change, that.
Jack Jostes [00:32:11]:
You had some change, and that puts enormous pressure on you, the owner.
Robyn Schmitz [00:32:15]:
A lot of pressure.
Jack Jostes [00:32:16]:
And so I'm sure we've all been in that situation. And so part of it, you come into it, and in the back of your mind, you have this enormous list of other things to do as an owner.
Robyn Schmitz [00:32:24]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:32:25]:
So part of it is, like, you genuinely, like, you're like, I'm not really sure I actually want to be here very long. So it like, truly. Right. Not in a potentially. Not in a weird way, but, like, it's true that if it's not a fit, you would. You would be glad to move on and go use something else you could go accomplish.
Robyn Schmitz [00:32:42]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jack Jostes [00:32:43]:
So my question is, how do you teach other. Maybe I'm a salesperson, and my whole income is based on closing sales, and I may not have this volume of other tasks and pressures in running the company. I was just curious if you found a way to help your salespeople, people who are not Robyn.
Robyn Schmitz [00:33:02]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:33:02]:
To have that presence or that.
Robyn Schmitz [00:33:05]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:33:06]:
That confidence. Partly to come in and be like.
Robyn Schmitz [00:33:08]:
Hey, if it's not a fit, that's okay. But we'd be delighted if it is.
Jack Jostes [00:33:11]:
Yeah.
Robyn Schmitz [00:33:12]:
I think there's two parts to that. There's no magic wand, first of all. So it's part coaching. It's also part getting the experience of the win and seeing it work. We are right in the middle of that right now as an organization. We have a fabulous architect who just started, a great design assistant who's been with us a long time. And I'm trying to help them succeed and empower them in every way I can. And part of it comes from once you get a couple wins and understand this idea of subconscious sales resistance, it just starts making sense.
Robyn Schmitz [00:33:47]:
But part of it, I would say, also comes down to deeply understanding your client and their pain points. And if you're deeply understanding them, you figure out what it is that matters to them in that solution. Not in a manipulative way, but because you genuinely want to help them. Alternately, if you can't help them in the way they need. Being honest with them and telling them so is actually an act of compassion because they're not wasting their time if you're not a good fit.
Jack Jostes [00:34:13]:
I agree. I think that focusing on how it might actually serve them to hear no.
Robyn Schmitz [00:34:17]:
Sometimes it can. Yep.
Jack Jostes [00:34:20]:
Is because if you're not a fit. Because I think a lot of people, especially where when I talk with clients about this aspect of selling, they say, oh, well, I felt like I had to do it because it was a referral. And it was a referral. And because it was a referral, I didn't follow any of my sales process. And I went through this long thing to create a design for somebody for a $300,000 project when they had $30,000. Yep. And I'm like, why? Why did you put the customer through that agony of waiting? Like that just set them back probably a month.
Robyn Schmitz [00:34:54]:
Exactly.
Jack Jostes [00:34:56]:
Like now. You created a negative experience. Whereas if you were just like, hey, we'd love to help you with this. Seems like maybe you're in the budget research phase.
Robyn Schmitz [00:35:04]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:35:04]:
And we should revisit this when you're. When you're For a little further along.
Robyn Schmitz [00:35:09]:
Absolutely.
Jack Jostes [00:35:10]:
That would have saved us both, like a month. That's. That's how I look at it. I'm curious, have you studied Sandler?
Robyn Schmitz [00:35:17]:
Yes, a little bit. So not. I haven't gone through the courses, but I'm aware. So surface level. Aware.
Jack Jostes [00:35:22]:
Because he. He has a. Who a lot of content about negative reverse selling.
Robyn Schmitz [00:35:26]:
Oh, really?
Scott Parker [00:35:26]:
Sandler, the car salesman? The famous car salesman?
Jack Jostes [00:35:30]:
No, no, Dave Sandler. He. He wrote many sales books and created the Sandler Sales Institute, I think. But one of the things is negative reverse selling. And it's. And it's talking about what you're. What you're talking about.
Robyn Schmitz [00:35:46]:
Yeah.
35:46 – Disqualifying Leads = Compassion + Better Retention
Jack Jostes [00:35:46]:
And one, we were talking about ruthless disqualification earlier. We're talking about ruthless disqualification of customers who are not a fit. But then also it's balanced. Robyn, with you mentioned the word compassion.
Robyn Schmitz [00:36:04]:
Yeah, I know, right? Like a sour patch kid over here.
Jack Jostes [00:36:09]:
But ultimately, I think it creates an opportunity.
Robyn Schmitz [00:36:14]:
Am I sweet or sour today? I'm kidding.
Jack Jostes [00:36:17]:
I think you have to have both in order to have the capacity to deliver the white glove service that your company does.
Robyn Schmitz [00:36:25]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:36:25]:
So that's what I think. So I think sometimes people hear ruthless disqualification and they're like, oh, no, this is mean.
Robyn Schmitz [00:36:33]:
That's a little spicy.
Jack Jostes [00:36:34]:
No, it is kind of spicy, but tell me more about that.
Robyn Schmitz [00:36:37]:
Yeah, so we were just talking about that. It's actually an act of compassion to say no, like you talked about, Jack. And at the end of the day, you protect the consumer, your team or yourself, depending on who's spending time on the sales process. When you get really serious about aligning right fit clients with your organization and also compassionately letting poor fit clients know as soon as you identify it in a very kind and professional way, because it does free up that month for them to go find their right fit.
Robyn Schmitz [00:37:11]:
And so when we were jokingly saying ruthless disqualification, it's because two parts to it, part number one is you're protecting your people, but you're also protecting them because I have no interest in my sales team working insane hours chasing things that were not meant for them and they don't have a chance to win. And I also have no interest in leading on a client with false hope if it's not a service that we really can provide value to them in or the budgets don't align. So we're going to be very honest in the front end and let them know those things. Because while it's ruthless to say, you know, I don't think we're the right fit for this and here's why, it's also compassionate because it does free them up.
Scott Parker [00:37:56]:
It really is. Because if you're not going to take a client on because of not a good fit, you're, you're saving them, probably, you know, you're doing the right thing for them too because you're not going to be able to give them the same level of service.
Jack Jostes [00:38:09]:
Well, this also I think ties into the industry's biggest problem, which is recruiting and retention.
Robyn Schmitz [00:38:16]:
Sure.
Jack Jostes [00:38:17]:
And the reason I say that is because if, if you and your sales team take on a project that is not a fit, either it's outside of your company's skill set or there's a time there's stress with the timeline or you have just a pain in the butt client.
Robyn Schmitz [00:38:34]:
Sure.
Jack Jostes [00:38:34]:
And then now, haha, I've passed it on to my crew lead or whoever it is that's going to create a lot of stress for that person and make their job miserable.
Robyn Schmitz [00:38:45]:
Absolutely.
Jack Jostes [00:38:46]:
Which can create that retention problem. So I think, I think, you know, bringing on the right customers has enormous impact financially for the company, operationally for employee morale, and it is compassionate to turn some people away.
Robyn Schmitz [00:39:04]:
It can be. Yep.
39:05 – Jack’s Unorthodox Tips: Hell Yes Clients + Review Strategy
Robyn Schmitz [00:39:05]:
Jack, you work with companies all over the nation and you have niched out a lot in the landscape industry. What would you say are one or two unorthodox ways outside of just online marketing that you've helped your clients reach their target client.
Jack Jostes [00:39:21]:
I think the unorthodox thing that comes first is helping them figure out who is their Hell Yes Customer. And what I mean by that is often I work with companies that are over 10 years old, they've been in business for 10 years and I think it may take that long to actually figure out who your Hell Yes Customer is. Maybe you have enormous experience prior to that to figure it out sooner, but I think it takes doing the work with a variety of people to figure out what do you enjoy, what do you make money at and where do you really want to focus? And so the reason that's unorthodox is most marketing companies build a everything website. So the website does everything for everyone and there's no focus and that then leads to poor quality leads. Whereas if I help somebody figure out who is your Hell Yes Customer and why should they buy from you now you're different and you're able to charge more. And that unlocks a lot of the problems that companies really want. So that's one of them.
Jack Jostes [00:40:31]:
One of the other unorthodox things that I obsess over is, is reviews. And this is something that many people are very proudly, they have a million referrals to the owner, but then they don't understand, well, why is my marketing not working? And they have a three star average on Google. And it's another thing, kind of like calling people back is really obvious to me. It's glaringly obvious that if you have a three star average on Google and you get, let's pretend your customer gets a referral to two landscapers and they Google both of you and one of them has a three star average and one of them has a four and a half star average. Like why would anyone call the three star company first? So to me it unlocks this enormous advantage in marketing. From whatever source of traffic, whether it's a referral or direct mail or digital, a lot of it does come back to online and people looking you up, what do you do?
Scott Parker [00:41:35]:
We have so many people when we ask why you chose us, where they volunteer it, because of your reviews.
Robyn Schmitz [00:41:41]:
Interesting. Yeah, love that.
Scott Parker [00:41:43]:
And I my buying habits, I won't hire anyone even if it's a referral unless I go online and look deep into the hidden areas of the Internet to see what I could find in someone.
Jack Jostes [00:41:55]:
So that makes you easier to get on board with this idea. Many people come to me and they say, well, I never use reviews and my customers don't either. And that's just a more Difficult personality to collaborate with.
Robyn Schmitz [00:42:15]:
So we were talking about Unorthodox, right? And you were talking about some of those things, which I think there's a generational thing a little bit there too. Scott, I want to know, as far as Unorthodox goes, what is your business's way of communicating your value to a client if you are competing against someone else? If I'm a target client and there's another competitor meeting the client tomorrow, why are they picking you? And how does that tie into the customer experience?
Scott Parker [00:42:43]:
Ours is actually very easy. We're just telling them the truth. That deal with the owner. No one cares more than the owner.
Robyn Schmitz [00:42:52]:
Okay.
Scott Parker [00:42:52]:
Owner is a point of contact through the entire process from initial call during construction, post project, and same day phone calls during business hours. So those are.
Robyn Schmitz [00:43:05]:
It's your responsiveness.
Scott Parker [00:43:07]:
Responsiveness. And there's a lot of things in construction. People need to trust you. They need to know you do good work. And we hear so much feedback. He did good work. But they started in April. They didn't finish till September.
Scott Parker [00:43:26]:
They broke their promises. There was no one to call back. So again, we had these all in front of us from day one when I started my company. But Jack's company actually identified that we should tell our clients about that. We weren't telling them our competitive advantages. So those are probably the two biggest things.
Jack Jostes [00:43:50]:
One question for you. How could you reverse engineer those into questions you would ask a customer?
Scott Parker [00:44:00]:
What do you mean?
Jack Jostes [00:44:01]:
So let's pretend that you're meeting with a client. How could you ask questions to find out if those things were even important to them?
Scott Parker [00:44:12]:
Before we go on the first call or visit their house, we send out a questionnaire which you guys develop. And we're trying to capture their. What did you call it, Robyn?
Robyn Schmitz [00:44:24]:
Their decision factors.
Scott Parker [00:44:26]:
Something points their. This was a takeaway from the they're buying decisions. What's most important to them when they. When they buy.
Jack Jostes [00:44:33]:
Yeah. So. And Robyn is having her clients rank those five things ahead of the conversation. And so I might reverse engineer those into a question like, hey, I noticed that you said responsiveness was your number one thing. Can you tell me more about why that's important to you? Have you ever hired a company that wasn't responsive? Oh, yeah, last landscape company. Oh, tell me more. You know, hey, Mrs. Jones, typically we charge more than companies like that and we're able to guarantee a same day response.
Jack Jostes [00:45:09]:
You know, does that make sense to.
Scott Parker [00:45:12]:
Yeah, no, it helps you. Helps you to give them, show them value. And a lot of our clients are. They're very busy people. They don't. They would pay a premium to know that this person's gonna project, manage us. They're, you know, we could reach them when we need to. And so, yeah.
Scott Parker [00:45:34]:
And we actually started to, I know in our fact sheet, we started to just be very transparent that we're not for everybody. And, and why. And who, who are we a good fit for? And, and do you think it's actually a good sales tool by doing?
Jack Jostes [00:45:49]:
I, I agree.
Scott Parker [00:45:50]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:45:51]:
Do you ever have people read that and like, laugh at it and say in a good way?
Scott Parker [00:45:57]:
No, but we've had people comment and say it's actually smart.
Jack Jostes [00:46:00]:
Well, that's what I mean.
Scott Parker [00:46:00]:
Yeah. We're just being choked.
Jack Jostes [00:46:01]:
Yeah. I find that when I started doing this.
Scott Parker [00:46:04]:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:46:04]:
A lot of my clients are like, oh, I do that too. We're gonna like working together. Because I think people are often afraid to do it. They're afraid.
Scott Parker [00:46:12]:
Oh, I was petrified at first just because, you know, we're, we're. But you know, it's, it shows that you're real people. And you know, again, it's, you're not doing the customer a good service if it's not a good fit. You're, you know, both parties could be hurt. So.
Jack Jostes [00:46:30]:
Absolutely.
Jack Jostes [00:46:31]:
Hey, everyone. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Robyn and Scott. Make sure you check out their websites in the, in the show notes. Ramblin Jackson designed and developed them and get inspired. Check them out. And hey, if you'd like to come to our studio in Colorado, we have upcoming Vision and Video Retreats where you can come in a small group mastermind and get some video work done. So check that out at ramblinjackson.com/retreat and if you're not working with us but you're curious about how we might be able to help you with your marketing book, a 15-minute marketing brainstorm at landscapersguide.com/brainstorm.
Jack Jostes [00:47:11]:
I'm Jack Jostes. All those links are in our show notes, so check them out and I'll look forward to talking with you next week on The Landscaper's Guide.
Show Notes:
Watch the full episode + transcript
https://landscapersguide.com/podcast
Tell us where to send your beef jerky
https://landscapersguide.com/toolbox
???? Join us in Colorado for a Vision & Video Retreat
https://ramblinjackson.com/retreat
???? Book a FREE 15-Minute Marketing Brainstorm
https://landscapersguide.com/brainstorm
???? Connect with our Guests
High Prairie Outdoors – https://highprairieoutdoors.com
Parker Landscape Design – https://parkerlandscapedesign.com