Could you imagine growing a $9 million commercial landscape company with very limited business or landscaping experience prior? Or, could you figure out how to build a manhole, or fly an airplane? Well, it's amazing what people are capable of. And in today's episode, I'm super excited to interview Dave Fairburn, the CEO of North Point Outdoors, a $9 million commercial landscape company from New Hampshire.
My name is Jack Jostes, and welcome to the Landscaper's Guide to Modern Sales and Marketing podcast. This show is all about increasing your profit, and improving your lifestyle, and just leading a great company. And today, Dave shares a lot of wisdom about how he went through the chaos of growing a business from nothing to 9 million, and the key thing that he did that helped him get out of the business. So, check out today's episode to hear Dave's story.
Interview With Dave
Jack Jostes:
Great. Dave, so here we are, we're in Grapevine, Texas. We both came down to speak at the Kubota USA Turf Talk. And it's been really great getting to know you, learning about North Point. And I wanted to interview you because I think your story could really inspire people. Whether you're a landscaper that's just starting out, you're a few years in, or you're several years in.
Jack Jostes:
You started your company about 10 years ago, just you and a business partner. And just the two of you, and you didn't even really have much experience. And now you run a $9 million company with 80 employees, and you just built this facility. And I know sometimes when I see people who are running a multimillion dollar company, it can seem unreal.
Jack Jostes:
But it's great to know that you did start out small. And so today, I just wanted to learn more about how did you get to where you're going? And first tell us, what did you study in college, and how much landscaping experience did you really have before you started your company?
Dave Didn't Start Out In Horticulture Or Landscaping
Dave Fairburn:
I knew you were going to hook me on this one. I went to school for aviation. I wanted to become a professional corporate pilot, that was my goal. Right after high school, before I started college, I'd started a small irrigation service company. And it was a great thing to do when I was in college because it opened me up in the summertime. I had my own self-performing part-time job.
Dave Fairburn:
As the years went by, customer list started getting bigger and bigger, and responsibilities were going up. I had a couple of part-time employees. By the time I graduated, the aviation industry was in the... It was 2009, so it was in a little bit of a slump, and flying jobs were hard to come by. So, with student loans coming in, I just pressed on, continued to service irrigation clients. And I had an opportunity to take on a landscape contract at a condo for a current customer who I was servicing the sprinkler systems for.
Dave Fairburn:
And I said, "Sure." I didn't own a trailer, a lawn mower, a weed whacker, or a blower. All I had in front of me was an opportunity, and a need to support myself after school. Lo and behold, here I am. So I don't have a history or an education in horticulture. And I think it may have been one of my key strengths to building a team.
Dave Fairburn:
Because ultimately, I was just in a race to replace myself to get out of the field. Not that I don't appreciate landscaping, the green industry, or snow. I've grown to love it. But my pride and passion realistically now is just empowering a team, building processes, integrating some great technologies that we have access to.
Dave Fairburn:
I might've been a few years advanced, perhaps, in college and the aviator mindset that I have. I like efficiency. I like effectiveness. I like technology to help me succeed. And in our market industry, we were leading the charge with 3D landscape designs, which is a great service to offer. But I had to use 3D designs because I didn't know anything about trees and shrubs and where to plant them, sun to shade, zones. So I use the software to help me out like that.
Dave Fairburn:
And all of a sudden, we became almost a premier design-build contractor based on that. So, it's been an interesting couple years. I never thought I'd be here. We have a great team behind me, and they're really what's created and built this company to what it is today. And I'm really interested to see what they're going to do with it in the next 10 years.
What Technology Is Used At NorthPoint Outdoors?
Jack Jostes:
Wow. Yeah, that's amazing. So you started out, you didn't have a lot of experience, but you knew that technology would become an advantage for you. What was some of the technology, aside from the 3D design software, what else do you use at North Point?
Dave Fairburn:
Yeah, I had a day. My partner and I, we might've had two or three, maybe four employees with us. He was cutting grass every day and I was doing sprinkler services. And we weren't even writing down work orders. So in the middle of the night, I remember waking up almost in a cold sweat scenario. And I got down on my computer and I wrote up our first paper work order.
Dave Fairburn:
Now, at the time, we were 22, 23 years old. In the landscape industry, unless you go to school for horticulture, there's no real training. You learn by making mistakes. And you learn that not having a work order probably means you're not invoicing a client. And we rolled out paper work orders for a while, until another one of those, "There has to be a better way" scenarios presented itself, conveniently in the middle of the night again. And I found Service Autopilot.
Dave Fairburn:
So the next morning, I made a phone call to them, and I said, "I'm looking to see what a CRM software can offer me." And I talked to a gentleman, Scott, up there. He sold me on their software. We signed up, and all of a sudden I had a streamlined way to manage incoming leads, turn them into an estimating program, sell it, sign it up, route it, dispatch it, invoice it.
Dave Fairburn:
The efficiency of that, and the accountability of tracking, set this ball in motion of, "Let's continue tracking." You see the wins there. It was a lot to set up, it took a lot of time and effort. But without it, I don't think I would have been able to empower the crews and the team and the managers that I have if they didn't have a program to work within.
Jack Jostes:
Absolutely. Not only do you need the people, but you need to give them the right tools...
Dave Fairburn:
The process.
How Dave Picked A Target Market To Serve
Jack Jostes:
... and the process to follow. Tell us, one of the things that I learned that I really liked was that you picked a target market. You picked what I call the hell yes customer, which for you is a commercial client. But back in the day, you were doing everything.
Jack Jostes:
So tell us a little bit, what was it like when you were doing everything, trying to please everyone, and what's business like now that you have a clear vision of who your actual customer is?
Dave Fairburn:
It was chaos. And you don't realize you're doing it until you're in too deep. I think what drove that mentality of needing to offer everything to everyone was, "Will I have enough work to pay rent? Will I have enough work to pay the truck payment or pay myself?" And the idea of shrinking a service or shrinking a market, it's almost counterintuitive to what your end goal is, is to collect money.
Dave Fairburn:
But as you go through that process, and you live through the chaos and the complexity of the equipment needed, the tools, the focus, the stress. If as a leader, you're running in the mud trying to figure everything out, your people are doing the same thing. And you do hit a point where, are you chasing the revenue, or are you chasing the margin?
Dave Fairburn:
And when you realize that revenue ultimately, not that it doesn't matter, it's not as important as gross margin. And when you realize that fact, you start to say, "How do I create better margin?" And that's what leads you down this thing of reducing revenue to focus and give all your energy and effort towards specific services to specific clients, and do that job really well, will increase your margin with a decrease in revenue. And it almost feels more sustainable at that point.
Dave Fairburn:
And I wish I had made this pivot towards the commercial world maybe even five or six years sooner than I did. Not that the residential market is an issue, but it's a dramatically different set of customers, set of challenges, set of routing that you have to understand. And there's plenty of companies that do both really well. We just decided that our long term play was going to be towards a commercial market. So we started to, not overnight, amputate the residential division, but just to start to shrink it over time.
Jack Jostes:
How did you know that commercial was the market for you? And I think what you said is a fair point. This isn't about saying, "Hey, commercial's the way to go." It's more of figuring out who is your ideal client? Who should you be working with?
Jack Jostes:
What information did you use to decide that? Part of it was probably gut feel, but did you use any of the data you had from Service Autopilot? Walk us through, you knew that you needed to pick something. What did you go through to get to what it was?
Dave Fairburn:
It was an emotional challenge, because the residential customers who almost brought us or gave us an opportunity to even be at this juncture. So, our long-term original clients, and the people who I still to this day remember their name, address, the services we did. And at some point having to tell that person, "Hey, you gave me a chance when I was a kid. You allowed me to make mistakes. You allowed me to learn. And now I'm moving on from you."? That was heart wrenching.
Dave Fairburn:
Business-wise, we felt that the commercial market in our area offered more of a sustainable approach for long-term business value. So, whether we want to continue to scale, to potentially sell, what our retirement endgame, in our market, there's more resale value to a commercial-based landscape and snow operator in the recurring world. It's not an easy one. Because you can certainly succeed residentially, but it just has a different set of challenges to overcome.
Dave Fairburn:
Service Autopilot was very insightful to understand the concept of windshield time, and non-billable time, crew billing efficiencies. Once again, if we were to focus on that margin, those are the things that you look at and say, "Should I pay a three-guy crew to sit at a condo for a nine-hour cut or an eight-hour cut, or have them do a route of 20 lawns?" And the expenses associated with doing that, and what the market's going to bear to sell that service for? And we just never felt like it was worth the margin.
Dave Fairburn:
Back in the original days, 10 years ago when my partner and I were mowing together, we would mow 24, 25 lawns a day. As you start to employ people, that number starts to slow down, and you're getting 20 done, 17, 16. And that's just the circumstance of an employee. So, you look at that same route, and it's starting to make you less and less money. Putting them onto a commercial property, you can control it, you can track it, and you get a better billing efficiency.
Jack Jostes:
Do you think you could have made this decision without the financial information that you had from the CRM?
Dave Fairburn:
I don't think it would have been as clear. I think everyone knows that it costs money. The windshield time is an issue. The load-unload time at each lawn. And it's a great model for an owner-operator business, and an owner-operator with a couple crews under close oversight. As you start to scale, you start to lose some of that. So, your efficiency starts to drop and your margins drop.
Dave Fairburn:
So then it becomes, we have a short season to make money in the green industry. And if you're spending your days not maximizing your opportunities, you could be wasting season after season chasing it, and it'll never show up for you.
Jack Jostes:
That's right.
Dave Fairburn:
Ultimately, I think it was a good move. Landscaping is such a dynamic business, and the market changes. Like this year, residential design-build went through the roof, while commercial businesses started to cut back. So of course I say, "Oh, I should have stayed in." But do I think we made a good long-term decision? I do think so.
The New Northpoint Outdoors Building!
Jack Jostes:
Absolutely. And it's allowed you to do some really cool things, like, tell us about your new building. What did you build recently?
Dave Fairburn:
Yeah. So, along the way you end up renting new spaces, and you bust at the seams and you got to find the next location to move to. And we bounced between a couple of different towns. We started up in Derry, New Hampshire, then we went down to Windham, which was nice because it just spread our market share. We existed down there for a few years and then came back up to Derry. And we couldn't find a shop location big enough that had an also large enough office space, so we operated across town.
Dave Fairburn:
So my shop and my field crews were operating out of our 4,000 square foot warehouse building, and the office staff, my partner and I were five or six minutes away in an office building. It worked out okay on the surface because we had Autopilot. It was a Service Autopilot. And we were running everything digitally, and using crew mobile tracking, computers, cell phones. It makes it all much easier, but we came up to a point of saying, "We need the family in one house."
Dave Fairburn:
So we started looking for some land, and we found a great piece of industrial property as a blank canvas. And I sat at my 3D design program that we started using years ago and I built out my dream shop, met some civil engineers. And somehow I got bank approvals, town approvals, and I got the green light to develop. I started looking through the cost of construction, and I was shocked.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah, it's really high right now.
Dave Fairburn:
It's high.
Dave Fairburn:
So we made the decision. I had a couple very talented guys in a small construction division we were operating, and we said, "We're going to build it together." So for the last 14 months, me and four guys took that six acre property, we stumped it, did the site work, drainage, foundations. We assembled a 12,000 foot warehouse building and a 5,000 foot office from the ground up.
Dave Fairburn:
So, I was physically involved with doing everything from pulling the stumps to putting the ridge vent on the roof, and everything in between. So we built it with our own team's hands, which is probably one of the more proud things I think I've ever accomplished.
Jack Jostes:
That's amazing.
Does Running A $9M Company Ever Get Boring?
Jack Jostes:
And I imagine that that would be very interesting, and that at some point maybe even running a $9 million company is boring. Does it ever get boring?
Dave Fairburn:
It doesn't get boring, the challenges just change. And I always tell my guys, I said, "A challenge is an opportunity to succeed." So that's how I look at this building. I had my night of, "Oh, no, what am I going to do? I can't do this." And I also understood that I couldn't get halfway done with this construction project and fall flat on my face. It would destroy everything.
Dave Fairburn:
So I didn't have a choice. We learned our way through it. I looked at everything like, "I need to learn how to stand a building up." So I read books. I needed to learn how to run GPS survey equipment, so I read books, and I watched YouTube channels and endless podcasts. And I learned how to install a manhole and drainage pipe by reading a excavation book and watching YouTube videos.
Jack Jostes:
Did you ever think 10 years ago that you'd be building a manhole?
Dave Fairburn:
Never. I also think it might be one of the best things that ever happened to my business, because I reported to that site every day with my work boots on and a hammer hanging from my belt. And my company was running at the hands of my business partner. Thankfully, I had one of those, and a very competent management team.
Dave Fairburn:
But all of a sudden, I was completely removed for over 12 months of physical construction, and maybe six months worth of development prior to that. So for 18 months, I didn't even show up to our shop. I didn't go into the office, I didn't get involved in anything. And it truly was eyeopening to see that by removing myself, I created a vacuum, and my very competent, capable team filled it, almost seamlessly.
Dave Fairburn:
Now, as of today when I go back home, I have to find out what the Dave 2.0, where I even fit back in. So, talk about an exercise in potential.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes:
That's really incredible that you were able to do that for 18 months, and the whole pandemic and everything started. But you guys stayed the course and got the building done. And you just this week finished it.
Dave Fairburn:
This week.
How To Shift From Working IN The Business To Working ON The Business
Jack Jostes:
So, that's really, really incredible. Somebody who is attending the event that we did, the Turf Talk that we did, asked, "At what point do you know that you should stop working in the business, and start working on the business?" And on this podcast, we've actually interviewed Tony Bass, who coauthored the E-Myth Landscape Contractor. Which is, the whole E-Myth, that was a book for me that was life-changing in learning about the mindset of shifting to working on the business, rather than in the business.
Jack Jostes:
What was that like for you early on? When did you go from Dave working 18 hours a day, and you told me you and your brother were working in this... What was your office like?
Dave Fairburn:
Oh, my business partner, and our office was in his basement bedroom. We were 22 years old, and we were stuffed underneath the basement stair set, in his bedroom in a small little office. And we were working like mad to succeed.
Dave Fairburn:
I'll share this with you, it's an interesting fact. So, a couple years in, the landscape industry, you can only learn from your mistakes. You can read a book, and you can try to study and understand as much as possible, but every company is different, every market's different. So you really have to take the punches and never give up.
Dave Fairburn:
So, a couple years in, we were still very young, and the business was growing and scaling. We didn't understand cost and margins like we should have. We didn't have degrees in accounting or finance. A lot of landscapers don't. And we ended up in a situation where our pricing that we had made up wasn't covering our expenses. And we were on the verge of going out of business.
Dave Fairburn:
And my partner and I were sitting on the back of his tailgate, and he says, "We owe out, call it a hundred thousand dollars to vendors." Our receivables was $8,000. We didn't even know what that meant. So, we didn't know how to fail. We closed the tailgate up, that was a Friday afternoon of talking with me, "What do we do? Because we owe bills and we're going to pay them, but we don't exactly have the money coming in."
Dave Fairburn:
We just showed back up to work on a Monday, that following Monday, not doing the same things we had been doing, because that obviously wasn't working. Took a real hard look at what I was doing, and seeing that I was spending my time on a lawn mower, or on a trimmer, and not spending time learning how to run a business. So from that Monday on is really when we started to roll. But I think it's a funny story that we've all been in a situation at some point, you wonder if you should quit, you wonder if you should get a different job.
Dave Fairburn:
That's what I love about the blue collar, hardworking landscape owner-operator is the inability for them to give up. It's almost just built in, you don't want to fail. So what do you do? You just keep going to work. But you have to be willing to change what you were doing and realize that there's got to be a better way.
Dave Fairburn:
And in my situation, the better way was to say, "I can't mow a lawn. I can't change a sprinkler head. I have to learn how to lead. I have to learn how to finance, and I have to learn how to operate a company." And that's what we went to work doing.
Jack Jostes:
I think that's the story of nearly everyone. I know that in my own business, there was a point where I was growing and I was doing everything, and I'm like, "Oh, I need help." And next thing I know, I had five employees. And there was a point where we had a ton of debt. I was sharing with you, we just had some phenomenal barbecue here in Texas, by the way. That was great.
Jack Jostes:
And I didn't know anything about finance, or pricing. I made up pricing, like you said. And I think in some ways you have to go through a period where you make up pricing, and you just start doing stuff, and you hire people. But recognizing that there is a better way, and that you do need to work on the business, and pick your hell yes customer, is really the key to building a business that can grow beyond that, and then create some freedom for you.
Jack Jostes:
You helped build, was it 13,000 square feet building? 12 thousand square foot building, 5,000 square foot office. That's pretty cool. What's your personal life like? What do you do when you're not working? Now that you're not working 18 hours a day, what do you like to do?
Dave Fairburn:
I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old now, so I'm growing a family. I'm making sure I spend plenty of time with them. I still fly for fun on the side. I have a really cool Cessna float plane. And I like to travel, and golf. You have to find your purpose. You can't work 18 hours a day sustainably, forever.
Dave Fairburn:
So, I remember there was a time when... When you're young enough, you can do it. And then, you end up with a spouse, or a family, or a life, and you go, "What's the purpose of running this business if I can't go do those things? If I can't see my friends, if I can't see my family, and if I can't do the hobbies that I want to do?"
Dave Fairburn:
So years ago we said, "We're working Monday through Friday, call it seven o'clock to five o'clock at night, and that's our work week. And if the company can't support that, if it needs more, then it needs more people, and it needs more process." So, gone are the days of me working on the weekends, and working at night missing family time and missing travel opportunities.
Dave Fairburn:
When you set that parameter for yourself, you set the solution. And I think it was one of the biggest payoffs. So now, as the company grows, and the team grows, I still have a pretty good work-life balance. My wife would disagree, because I think I'm still on the phone more than I should be when I get home. But I love what I do, so it's worth it.
The 'Balance' In 'Work Life Balance' Is A Verb
Jack Jostes:
And I think it is a balance. I have a coach, Wayne Herring, who always reminds me that balance is a verb. It's not something that you're like, "Oh, when I reach this revenue, I will have work-life balance. It's really easy." And it's hard, and sometimes you do need to answer the phone. But trying to set that parameter and stick to it, I think it's really important. Especially if you have young kids. I have, they're now four and five, but at one point they were two under two, and it was crazy. Now, man, it's really fun, hanging out with them and having that time.
Dave Fairburn:
Yeah. And like you said, your balance will change. There will be times when you need to go. If I have to get in, I'll get in. And if I have to get my feet wet, I'll do it. If I have to work on a weekend, I'll do it. But set that parameter, and make sure that what you're working for is there when you meet your goal.
Dave Fairburn:
So, there's no magic formula that says I'm going to hit a million dollars in sales, and all of a sudden my stress is going away. That doesn't happen. Because I used to look for that same light at the end of the tunnel. We're going to do a million in sales and I'm going to have more time at home. The opposite happens. I'm going to hit 2 million in sales, and I'm going to travel more. I'm going to hit three, I'm going to fly more, or fish more, or golf more.
Dave Fairburn:
I stopped looking for those things, and I stopped tying my revenue, or my amount of trucks, or amount of employees to a salvation feeling. And I just decided to live within the day, live within the week. And it's worked for me. So I've been there. It's stressful, but it's certainly worth it.
Jack Jostes:
Well, great. Well, Dave, thanks so much for coming on the show. You've shared a lot of great wisdom. And we also, we had a really great Turf Talk with Kubota USA, who put on just a phenomenal event. So make sure you look for the recording of that at kubotausa.com slash Turf Talk.
Jack Jostes:
And my name's Jack Jostes. Dave, thanks so much for being here. This is the Landscaper's Guide to Modern Sales and Marketing podcast, where I love interviewing people from the green industry about inspiring stories, technology, sales. Just generally growing a business and leading a team, which is something that I think you do really well.
Dave Fairburn:
I'm trying.
Jack Jostes:
And it's been a pleasure. So thanks everyone for tuning in. We look forward to seeing you next week.
Dave Fairburn:
Thank you.