Connect With Today’s Guest:
🌳 Joshua Gillow: https://yes.express/
👤 Connect with Joshua Gillow: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-gillow-04ba89a7/
📸 Joshua Gillow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamjoshuagillow/
🏢 Podcast: https://salesmadesimplepodcast.com/
📚 Get the Book – The Core 10 Sales Playbook:
📖 On Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GJQYJ7SH
🎧 On Audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/B0GM2CYYCC
Get Started With The Landscaper’s Guide:
🎧 Watch the full episode + read the transcript: https://landscapersguide.com/podcast/
🥓 Tell us where to send your beef jerky: https://landscapersguide.com/toolbox
📅 See upcoming live and virtual events:
https://landscapersguide.com/events
Why Sales Is About Relationships Not Revenue
00:00
Joshua Gillow
This is about building relationships, not just revenue. You know, money. They say money is the root of all evil. They say it says that in the Bible. It's like, no, the root of all evil is the love of money. All of it. At the end of the day, we have to ask what money is, and money is a story.
Joshua Gillow’s Background In Landscaping
00:13
Jack Jostes
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Landscaper's Guide. Today I'm excited to have a repeat guest. Somebody I've collaborated with on some webinars and podcasts is Joshua Gillow. And I'm excited to interview Joshua about his new book, the Core 10 sales playbook, tools for Outdoor Living, Landscape and Hardscape Contractors. And Joshua, this is a great book. It's also a great audiobook for folks listening to prepare for this. I got the book, I read some of it, I got busy, and then I bought it on Audible, and that was cool to just drive around and listen to the book as well. So first, just wanted to congratulate you on writing a great sales book. I know how much, you know, effort goes into writing a book, and this is cool, man. So congratulations.
01:05
Joshua Gillow
Thank you, Jack. It's. It was a pleasure to write and 30 years of broken bones and bruises and all that stuff in order to. To. To build, you know, build what's in the book. So I appreciate you having me on here, and I'm excited to. To talk.
01:19
Jack Jostes
Well, you know, for. For folks listening who. Who maybe haven't met you before. Tell us a little bit about your background. You. You. You grew up. I. Your mom had a garden center kind of. Right. You know, so tell. Just tell us a little bit about your family story and then your background running your landscape company that led you to what you're doing now.
01:43
Joshua Gillow
Absolutely. Thank you for that. So, yeah, I started around five years old, where I was born and raised out in the countryside between cornfields. Not a whole lot of people around. And my mother decided she wanted to start a garden center because she had extra plants that she was raising. Put a little sign out at the road and started getting people coming in. And I saw her starting to build a business. My father was, you know, at that time, he was in the meat department at the local grocery store. Anyway, that started to grow, more people kept coming in, they kept buying more plants. My father eventually moved over to working with her full time, and they started building a company. I was young at the time. Probably it was probably about 7, 8, 9, 10 years old in that range.
02:20
Joshua Gillow
So I got to grow up in a family business where we worked seven days a week, didn't get paid for it. And that was life, right? You just never questioned it. It just was what it was. So fast forward then to about 18 years old. People started coming in the garden center and asking, hey, can your sons build stuff? My brother is about 18 months younger than me. He said, can you. Can your sons build stuff? We have things we need done around the house. And, you know, I couldn't. I still never forget when the first customer said that they would pay us a thousand dollars a day, which included materials, Jack. But, you know, a thousand bucks a day to come out and do stuff around their house. And I'm just like, oh, my goodness. Like, I'm counting on my fingers.
02:50
Joshua Gillow
Like, I'm used to working seven days a week. So I'm like, seven days. I'm like, we're rich. Like, it's amazing because we had no money, right? So started that. That's what started my first landscaping company. It was called Timber Rock. It was my brother, my father and I, and we did all kinds of odd job the house and eventually got into patios and seating walls and kind of like a lot of guys do. They started off with the proverbial pickup truck and wheelbarrow and worked our way into doing, you know, four and then five and eventually, dare I say six figure projects back in the early 2000s. And it was like, wow, a lot of stuff come at us quick. I did that for 15 years with my brother and father, and eventually my brother and I had a falling out.
03:26
Joshua Gillow
So I started my current design manage practice master plan again 15 years ago. And it's been an incredible journey. And so much of what I share in the book is all of the challenges and the trials and the poor decisions and all of that, and the good ones too. But things that I learned along the way because no one kind of grabbed my hand and taught me how to communicate. I was never that guy. So I wanted to help the industry with that part of my gifting that has been so instrumental in my shift in my life. So that's the shorten of it.
Craftsman Vs Professional Mindset
04:01
Jack Jostes
Well, it's an awesome story and it's, you know, it's one of the things I love about the landscape industry is so many. So many people start when they're, in your case, five or six or, you know, really young and partly just through grit and hard work and perseverance, they get to a certain level of success and then they realize that although they're busy, they're not really making money, you know, and so you shared Some, you're pretty. You're pretty vulnerable and candid and raw. In the book, it's really. I. I appreciate that about it because people see you have your podcast, you've got your cool background. For people watching, it's really cool. You gotta check out the Sales Made simple podcast. And they, without hearing those stories, might think, oh, Joshua just has been slaying it at this level forever.
05:00
Joshua Gillow
He.
05:00
Jack Jostes
Right. He must be. But one of the sentences that stood out in the book was something that you said, and it was, you need to grow from being a craftsman to a professional. And what's the difference? And tell me a little bit about your journey.
05:20
Joshua Gillow
Yeah, that's a great question. So you know, craftsman, I know when I first started out in this industry, eons ago, almost 30 years now, I just wanted to build cool stuff, dude. I was so excited, full of energy, full of curiosity. On the farm, we did everything right. If you need an engine changed in a truck, you went and bought the engine at a junkyard, you hope like heck it ran, and you put it in the truck. You spent a week doing that, busting your knuckles, getting all the tools, borrowing stuff and making it work. And, you know, I'm just used to doing things with my hand. I learn best with my hands. So for me, getting out into helping people and having them pay us to do it, which was a fascinating idea. I love to build stuff.
05:54
Joshua Gillow
So that's the craftsman side of things, right. I think a lot of our brothers and sisters in the industry, they get into building outdoor living spaces, landscaping, hardscaping, all that kind of stuff, because they love to build cool stuff with their hands. Right? They just love it, like taking an idea and bringing it to life with their bare hands. I don't know. There's nothing that was more exciting for me as I was growing up in the male to do that, to take just words and turn them into spaces that families come together and take pictures in and all that just lit me up and still lights me up today. Right? But what I learned along my journey is that craftsman, being a good craftsman, being good with your hands as an owner will get you so far.
06:30
Joshua Gillow
And eventually you're either going to stay there, which there's nothing wrong with that, or you're going to become more in a professional stance. And what I mean by that is not giving up your roots and not, you know, going against who you are and who God made you to be. But it's more about how do I become more so I can give more Right. So in order to become more learning, the professional side is the communication, the sales side, the systems processes, understanding how marketing works, like all of those kind of bigger things that we don't really want to play with because we just want to build stuff. But all those things are necessary if we want to build stuff, if we want now to empower teams to build stuff. So it's not just about us anymore.
07:05
Joshua Gillow
It becomes kind of like when you have kids, you know what I mean? All of a sudden it's not just about you and your wife anymore. It's all of a sudden now you have these little people that you're pouring into and that are. That they're asking of you more than you want to give some days, right? So to build that team dynamic, you have to take a step from being the one doing it with your hands and to finding a way to find joy and excitement in being the ones that manage and lead the ones that are doing the stuff. So that's the transition.
The Million Dollar Ceiling Without Systems
07:31
Joshua Gillow
And in that, you know, what we see a lot of people coming into our courses is you see about a million dollars is how far you can get, roughly depending on inflation, of course, but about a million dollars in revenue before you start to see the fracture. And not having any systems in the business, you can get to about a million without systems. And after that they're like, well, I need a system for. I don't have enough time in a day anymore to go out to 15 leads a week and only get for. Right? It's like all that wasted time, like, well, I don't know where this time is going. I don't have enough time anymore.
07:59
Joshua Gillow
And that's about a million dollars is where systems become very pivotal in transferring beyond that or hold you right where you are if you're not willing to open up and learn how to do that. So, you know, the craftsman is the guy doing the stuff. And if that is your calling listeners, if that's like your calling, like, look, all I want to do is build stuff, then you need to find people that are willing to do the professional stuff around it, right? So that you can be, you know, doing what you do best, but finding the right roles, getting in the right seats, all that is important to crack that million dollar line.
08:25
Jack Jostes
Well, and so for the folks listening, you know, I'm thinking of the book the E. Myth Revisited, because that book talks about the technician, the manager and the entrepreneur. And I think a lot of us start as a technician of some kind. We learn a trade or A skill. And then we strike out on our own. And for a period, you know, you're freelancing or whatever you want to call it, you're a solo person, and then you start growing and you start trying to hire people, and then maybe you become. I called myself an accidental manager. I didn't, I wasn't. I didn't really think about what I was doing. And I made a lot of mistakes hiring employees and not planning the money part and then realizing that my bookkeeper actually couldn't help me at all with that.
09:14
Jack Jostes
They're just like, hey, look, my job is just to make sure your books are accurate. I'm like, but I'm losing money. And they're like, yeah, that's your problem. That's not what I do. And I'm like, oh, I need to learn. I need to learn a lot of other things. But for the folks listening, maybe they love the craftsman role, the technician role. Do you think, would they better off as an employee somewhere or a subcontractor or.
09:43
Joshua Gillow
I mean, it's possible, sure. I mean, really, I believe that all of us are endowed with specific special gifts from, as you know, from God. And it's our goal, it's our objective to figure out what they are. And then once we find out what they are, once we discover them, to master them and share them. Right? So not everybody has an entrepreneurial spirit or heart or nor do they want to. Not everybody loves to be a technician. Not everybody likes to be the manager. For me, I found that over time, that visionary long term vision is something that I have as a gift. Like I can see forward, I can see things that other people don't see into the future. And what I've also found is when building teams, I know that about myself.
10:20
Joshua Gillow
So others that I bring onto the team, they are strong in the areas that I'm weak and finding with those. But knowing that about yourself so that you can kind of insulate yourself with others around that support you where you're not your strongest is really the bigger piece. So could you be, you know, one or the other? For sure. You could be. Could you go work for somebody? You could take your gifts and go there too. It depends on what you're looking for. What often happens, Jack, and I'm sure you see this too, is where you have men and women out there or brothers and sisters who are like, you know, I'm tired of working for somebody. I can do this myself. I can then make my own hours. I can make as much money as I want.
10:56
Joshua Gillow
And I can do this in my way, the way I want it to be done, right? So they start their own business. There's not a whole, you know, a lot of hoops you gotta jump through in America to start a business, which is why it's so amazing here, right? But at the same time, what they don't realize is they give up one job, which is 40, 50 hours a week, guaranteed paycheck, possibly benefits, depending, all for an absolute hope, right? Because at the end of the day, what often happens, and this happened to me for many years, is that I own my job and I was my own worst enemy. I was working five days, then seven days a week just to pick up the details, working 80 plus hours a week, all to find out at the end I barely had enough money.
11:34
Joshua Gillow
And I'm like, if I just stayed working for that other company, it'd be so much easier. I started washing dishes for extra money after I started the company. I just had a lot of things going on because the company wasn't putting a lot of cash out, even at a thousand bucks a day. I thought it was a lot of money until I realized that, you know, half of that went out in materials, plus I had equipment and all this stuff. So I didn't know any of those things when I started. Yeah, yeah, it's a big, it's understanding those parts and understanding where you're best suited. But so much of this is about time preservation and being intentful and investing time, not just spending it places.
12:04
Jack Jostes
Well, yeah, I'm with you on that. And, and then there's learning about taxes and, you know, being taxed as an employee is different from being taxed when you're a sole proprietor or you own the company. And even if you make, you know, if you make 60 grand as an employee versus making 60 grand as a sole proprietor, you're going to pay so much more in tax on that 60 as the owner that you actually make less and you may have spent more time doing it. So there's a lot of lessons in business, but I wanted to focus on some of the core 10 sales, and I wanted to encourage people listening. Some of you might already have a million. $2Million, 3 million, 20 million. I interviewed somebody with a $30 million landscape company, I believe, you know, and I read the book.
13:01
Jack Jostes
There's always something to learn from a sales book is what I found is there's always something. And one of the things that I really liked that was a Core theme in here, and you had a little formula for it. And this is from the core number three, Stop selling features, start selling outcomes. And I wanted to, you know, hear from you a bit on that, because many people will say, well, you know, Jack, it's all about price. All my customers care about is price. And this book overcomes that mindset really, in a lot of ways. But one of the tactics that you gave people that I think we could talk about a little bit, it was a little formula. Do you remember the formula? Can you.
Stop Selling Features Start Selling Outcomes
13:47
Joshua Gillow
So that equation.
13:48
Jack Jostes
Yeah, yeah. So. So tell us about that. So that equation, I think this is something that people listening right now in spring 2026, could take and use. Like, literally today, if you're driving to a job site or you're going to go meet a customer, talk to us about that.
14:04
Joshua Gillow
Absolutely, man. Thank you for that. And the funny part is, I added that in the book. That's something that I learned a while ago and been integrating. So now when I speak in front of crowds and I we that equation, and they immediately say, that's so easy to implement. And they do like, holy crap. Like, we're selling. Our closing rate just went up because of the way we communicate. And that's. That's the key. That's the key to it all. It's not about what you're doing is wrong. It's. There's ways to enhance it to get a better result. Right? So. So that equation, the fundamental of it's. Is our industry loves to sell features, right? I'm going to. I'm going to build you a fire pit, a patio, and a seating wall, right? You're like, all right, great. It's what the customer asks for.
14:41
Joshua Gillow
That's what you give them in your proposal. So in your proposal, after the customer asks you for that, you're like, all right, cool. I'm going to give fire pit, that seating wall and that patio. And then they ask three contractors because they already know what they want, right? So they're coming to you with features. And then all three contractors say, yeah, no problem. I'll get you a quote for the patio, the fire pit, and the seating wall. So when the homeowner's sitting there looking at three proposals sitting in front of them, and all of them say those three things on them and each have different prices, what do you think the customer's gonna do when all of them look the same, like, what are they gonna do?
15:10
Joshua Gillow
You think they're gonna pick the highest price because they like to spend extra money or do you think they're gonna pick the most logical choice? Which is what? The lowest price. Right. You've given them no other choice. The homeowner sits there and says, why would I spend more for the same thing? Even though we know jack that they're not the same. Every one of those companies has a different level of craftsmanship. They have a different level of integrity. All of that is different. But to the homeowner, they've given them no discernible difference. So the equation says you take the feature and you add the. So that. And then you populate that area in your proposal with the emotional benefit they're going to get from that.
15:45
Joshua Gillow
Now, what this takes is during your conversation, your discovery process with your customer, when you're having conversations early and they're talking to you either on the phone or you're at the job site, and you're saying, hey, you know, we want to put in a new patio, a new seating wall, and a new fire pit. And you're like, okay, so tell me more about that. And you're like, well, you know, right now, our backyard is a bit drab. It's an old concrete slab that's just falling apart, and we don't really go out there much. And, you know, I'd really love to have a patio that was easy maintenance, low maintenance, that I could have family gatherings on. And I wish I had a fire pit that we could roast s' mores on.
16:19
Joshua Gillow
And I wish we had a seating wall that was comfortable right next to that so we wouldn't have to bring chairs out anymore. So the professional hardscape landscape or outdoor living contractor is taking down notes of what they're saying. Not just fire pit, seating wall, and patio. They're catching those descriptive words. And what we'll do with those descriptive words, we're mining them, right? What we're going to do, we've got to capture their exact words, don't correct them. They chose out of millions of choices of words, they chose that fragment of word or those word groupings to describe what they're looking for. So when you're on your proposal or even in your conversations, you'd be like, all right, Mrs. Jones, look, here we have a patio so that you can have low maintenance, comfortable space for your family to gather.
16:59
Joshua Gillow
And then we put in this fire pit so you guys could. So that you guys can roast s' mores on that Saturday night, like you told me a couple weeks ago. And you know what? We're gonna put in that seating wall so that you don't have to bring chairs out anymore. And you always have seating right there next to the fire pit. Did I hear you right when we talked last? And by that time, their faces are lit up. They're like, oh, my goodness, he finally listened to me. This is amazing. It's the same thing. It's the same patio, the same seating wall in the same fire pit. But if you take the feature, add so that.
17:27
Joshua Gillow
And capture their exact frame of words that they're looking to describe how it would make that space better or the emotional driver they're after, it changes everything. You use that in your design presentations. You use that when you're laying out your proposals. And then when you set your proposal next to the other three, guess which one they're looking at. When you have a higher price, guess which one they're thinking. Like, wait a minute, this one actually solves my emotional problem. Because, ladies and gentlemen, listening, 80% of the problems they're bringing to you aren't physical problems. They're emotional problems. They can't do certain things they want to do. So 80% of this is emotional. 20% Is logical. So we know that to be true, which it is.
18:05
Joshua Gillow
Now it's a matter of how are we showing up in the way that we are addressing and working with our customers, communicating with them to make sure that we're hitting those parts where they can understand we are the best fit because we listen best. And these solutions that we have are going to give you exactly that and more. That's how you go to premium from being in a. In a constant street fight, in a price battle.
18:05
18:05
Jack Jostes
I really like that. And one of the things that I like about it is it's. I think sometimes people think, oh, well, I'm not going to read a sales book because I don't want to learn some slimy sales tactic to, like, swindle people. You're just talking about really listening to people and repeating back to them what they want in the way that they want to hear it. And I really like it. In fact, I'm thinking about a sale that I'm making this week, Joshua. And it sound. I'm selling. I'm collaborating with somebody on hiring me to speak at one of their events. And one of the things that happened in the conversation that I literally have some of my notes on paper that were on my desk from that meeting.
19:16
Jack Jostes
And this person mentioned learning objectives three times, and he used the word implement three times. And he's like, we want to have learning objectives that our audience can implement. Right away. And so I did exactly what you're talking about. I'm like, so what I'm hearing you say is you want to make sure that. That each talk has learning objectives so your audience can implement.
19:40
Joshua Gillow
And he's like, yes, that's exactly.
19:43
Jack Jostes
And so. And then in. And then I wanted to share a tactic that I'm using. I'm using AI Quite a bit. So right after the call, I. And I actually take notes on paper and then voice stuff. I'm currently using Claude for my AI And I'm like, hey, in the proposal, I usually call it key takeaways. I'm like, change the key takeaways sections to learning objectives the audience will implement. Right. So it's literally I'm rewriting my own thing. It's basically, I'm not. And I'm not. Nothing sneaky here. I'm just communicating in the way that my client wants to be communicated with. It's the golden rule.
20:25
Joshua Gillow
It is. And you're. You're doing something that most contractors, including myself in the bidding struggle with, which is listening. Because we think we're going out to put on a performance, right? We think we got to go out, knock on the door, you know, heart starts pounding. It's like, you kick the door and like, let's go. Right? It's like some kind of, like, big event. And it's not. You know, that's why the first core is to talk less and close more. Because this is not about you.
Talk Less Close More In Sales Conversations
20:47
Jack Jostes
Yeah, I was just going to say, I really. I really like that. That. That is literally the first core is talk less, close more. And I was coaching one of my salespeople on my team, and I said, hey, were doing a role play, and I said, hey, in that. What percentage was you talking versus me talking? And he instantly. He's like, oh, man. It was entirely me talking. And I'm like, all right, let's do it again. And how can you ask me questions to get me to talk? And I target 70%. 70% The other person talking, 30% me talking. Tell me, why is this a challenge for craftsmen? Right. So why is this a challenge for somebody who's. And for folks listening who have been doing hardscaping? You know, they've been doing construction, installation.
21:38
Jack Jostes
I mean, I just partly want to acknowledge the gift that you're talking about is so many of our listeners have incredible knowledge of horticulture, construction, drainage, all design. They. They can see things. How is that also a challenge for them in selling?
21:58
Joshua Gillow
Yeah, because I know when I First started, I had this. This idea, this inkling that I had to prove my worth, right? That I had to. To prove my worth through just being really smart and sounding really smart. I grew up in the garden center. I could name any of the plants in that garden center, which are just about everything that could grow in our area. I could name them in Latin and English. Like, I knew these things in and out. They were like my friends. Like, seriously, there was just so many. And this is what we did every day. So when I got out to meet a customer, I'd be talking about a plant, and I would use the Latin terms and all this because I wanted to sound really smart. I thought that sounding smart was going to equal the sale.
22:32
Joshua Gillow
And unfortunately, that's not how it works. What? There is some level of intelligence that goes into this, of course, like a level of skill. And anybody that's at the level of craftsmanship, that most of our industry at, it shouldn't have a problem with it. But we have to go in understanding what our role is. Is it to put on a performance and to wow them with your dazzling knowledge, or is it about understanding what they truly need, want and desire? Because, you know, it's important to know. And for them to feel like you can listen and understand that is so much more important than for them to think you already know the answer, because you don't. You know, 90% of what contractors do is assumption. They assume things. That customer needs this, customer needs that. This is what we're going to do.
23:09
Joshua Gillow
This is when we're going to do. This is how we're going to do it. And they assume things. And the customer has a completely different set of expectations than what you do. And that's where there's so many collisions on the job site. Why contractors lose money, why they lose opportunity for referrals, why projects go south is because it's a misalignment of expectations. And it all comes from. Not all. Mostly comes from assumptions and just trying to fill in the blank quickly because you're going a thousand miles a minute. So really, it's because we're excited. Why do. Why do contractors do that? It's because they're proud of how smart they are and how much time they put in and how much they've mastered this subject that they want to share it. But customers don't care so much about that.
23:44
Joshua Gillow
What they care about is that you truly understand and are willing to listen to what they want, because their primary question is, what's in it for me? That's a human primary question. So your customer is like, why choose? You know, why choose Jack over Joshua? Why would we? Why would. What's in it for me? Do they listen better? Are they cheaper? Are they down the throat? Because price is a consideration, but for most, it's not the only consideration. And contractors think it is the only one. They can completely show up late, do half assed, you know, proposals, not do things on time. They're like, doesn't matter. Because it's only about price. No price is a consideration. Whether you have $1 or $1 trillion, it's a consideration. So we need to set ourselves up to be the ones that listen best.
24:24
Joshua Gillow
Because the best sales detective is the one that closed the most projects.
24:24
Jack Jostes
I'm with you on that. And just a personal story right after this call. I'm picking up my mom at the airport, which is really cool. And on the way, I'm dropping off a check at a plumber's office and they just installed a boiler for me. And I interviewed two plumbers, partly just because my experience has been that a lot of people never even send you a proposal or they don't. There was a third party company in the running that just never showed up. And we hired the more expensive plumber. Pretty similar. Like we're getting a boiler, right? They were different boilers and I did look into them and everything, but a lot of it came down to the feeling that we had with the one company was they were more professional, they listened to us.
25:22
Jack Jostes
They didn't make us feel dumb about what we didn't know about boilers and all the different options. And they also, another thing, they had way more Google reviews. So it kind of came down to, I'm like, all right, I've already googled both of you. That's how I found them. Because it was just, I don't know, people. All the referrals I got were like, oh, yeah, that person moved. So. And so one of the old plumbers I hired went out of business. So went to Google. And it's different from selling design, build, construction, of course, but it's similar in that we arrived at two proposals. One was more and the feeling of, okay, this company listened to us. They also planned a phase for something later that we wanted a water filter and they just, they listened to us.
26:14
Joshua Gillow
Yeah, yeah. Yep.
26:15
Jack Jostes
So it's.
26:16
Joshua Gillow
Yeah. So much of this isn't about, you know, telling people about your value. That's what a lot of sales guys in this industry do. They feel like they gotta go out and tell em about how great they are. Even if it doesn't, if you don't saying that it's still like hey, we're the best. We have the this, we have the that we, we, we. They swear they're French, right? It's this constant like the we part. But client basically just wants does this person understand me? Do they really know what I'm after here? To your point with the boiler, you know you, they knew after a conversation with you because they asked good questions that you wanted to put in that water filtration system as well.
26:45
Joshua Gillow
So let' might be like hey, we got the best product, we'll give you the best price, we can be out here the fastest. But to a lot of customers that's not enough. It's not enough to be the lowest price. They want something more and discernible people that have discernment in that they're going to be like, you know, let's jack. There are people out there that all they care about is the low price and they'd be willing to do a half assed project that'll fall apart in two years just so they win the low price war. And that's great but those aren't our customers.
26:45
Jack Jostes
Well and I just, I don't want to screw around with this again. I've had to replace so many things at my house that I want quality, I want it done right the first time and I want a company that I can, I think is going to be around.
27:27
Joshua Gillow
Yeah, that's true.
27:28
Jack Jostes
And if I need to pay a little more for them to be around, that's just me. So I wanted to, you know, there's 10 core steps. We can't possibly give it away because people need to buy the book or audiobook. But one of the things that I want to talk about that you know, was a challenge for me and I think it's a challenge for sales people in general. One is identifying as a salesperson is like a dirty word for a lot of people. But you talked about, you know, humble beginnings, working seven days a week. You share, you know, not making a lot of money. Talk to me about some of your personal growth in mindset and rather than just you, I mean like what do you see with your clients?
28:15
Jack Jostes
You do sales coaching, you have a, do you still have that in person event in Pennsylvania?
28:22
Joshua Gillow
We do, we just haven't run it this year. But yeah we do in person. I travel the country speaking to groups and all that, you know, all within our Industry. Yeah.
28:29
Jack Jostes
Yeah. You know, I mean, you. So I guess you work with a lot of people who are working on improving their sales. What are some of the maybe mindset challenges that people have around money that you've either personally overcome or that you find people struggling with?
The Psychology Of Money And Sales Mindset
28:47
Joshua Gillow
Yeah, I mean, it's a deep subject we can have a couple of podcasts on. But across the top of it, so much of how we manage money and what stories we have around money in our own head come out and how we communicate when we're salespeople. Right. At the end of the day, I use the word closing a lot in my conversations. And for some, that puts the hairs up in the back of their neck, because in their mind, closing is like closing a door. We're done, it's over, no more, none of this kind of stuff. And I have a different definition of closing. For me, closing is closing the gap between where a customer is uncertainty and where they want to be, which is happy and certain. We close the gap, we get that blessing, that privilege to close that gap.
29:29
Joshua Gillow
So that's what closing is. And how much you show up in that is going to determine how effective you're going to be at helping those customers. Because if we can't close that gap, if we can't take them from uncertainty to certainty, uncertainty meaning I don't know to do back here, I don't know who to hire. I don't know what's going to cost. I don't know what's going to look like all these things over to. We solved all that for you. Sign here. And we're ready to go. Like, that's our job. So if we don't prioritize that as contractors and think through and designers and think through, like, how can we help make that experience for our customers as seamless as possible? Listen, the very best. And that will help us elevate our standing in our market.
30:04
Joshua Gillow
Because right now, with the world the way it is, you know there's a 60, 40 split. Right. 40% Of the people in the United States can still afford things they could always afford. And they're not really. It doesn't matter what the economy does. They're not really affected that much that they think about it. Again, another consideration, maybe it's a timing thing, but they're still going to do what they're going to do, and they want what they want. Like your boiler. Like, if I go to buy a vehicle, I'm at an age in my life where I want what I want. Right. And there's Many people out there that are the same way.
30:28
Joshua Gillow
And if we're trying to market, not even market, but communicate to somebody who, you know, they're living paycheck to paycheck, it's a very different explanation about what money is than somebody who has lots of it and is not worried about that part. So we have to be careful with who we're talking to. Right. If you're talking to the other 60% who. Money is very emotional for them, and they don't have a lot of it, and they're constantly trying to cut corners and cut quarters to make things work, then it's a very different conversation. So we got to know who we're pointing at. Right. But so all of this comes back to what story do you have around money? Honestly, what is money at the end of the day? For some, it's power. For some, it's security and safety. For some, it's food.
31:09
Joshua Gillow
For some it's freedom. I mean, there's so many different definitions of it. Until we really understand what that means for us. You know, money, they say money is the root of all evil. They say it says that in the Bible. It's like, no. The root of all evil is the love of money as its own currency. The money itself. It's not what it can do. I believe that we become more so we can give more. Right? And that can be given in money. That can be given in time. They're all currencies at the end of the day. But if we think back and think, all right. How did I get. I think of money a certain way. My wife thinks of it different way. My kids think of it different ways. My friends think of it different way.
31:45
Joshua Gillow
Just think, listeners, about how many people around you and how they all see money differently. Some will spend quickly without thinking. Others won't spend a dollar. They feel guilty and shame around spending money. All of that is because of internal stories that you have inside. Like it or not, they're stories that were gifted to you, most likely when you were young or what you saw in your environment. You know, if you grew up in a really hard environment where you didn't have a lot of money, I didn't have a lot of money. It can go one of two ways. E. You hold it all in many ways, but one of two primary ways. You hold it all in. You don't want to give any away, or you give it all away because there's always more coming.
32:19
Joshua Gillow
But all that comes down to the story you have inside around what money Is. So to answer that question, Jack around, the psychology of money. It's all of it. At the end of the day, we have to ask what money is. And money is a story. Its value is based on the stories that go on in your mind. I should have this. It's the should haves and the could haves, right? I should have this. I'm supposed to have this. I'm 47. I should have the house. I should have the this. I should have that. And all of those are stories in your head. So the first step in any of these is just start to become aware of them. That's the first step in all of this. Just become aware of it. Like, hey, I'm human.
32:52
Joshua Gillow
This is part of the human experience is how God wired us. So now let's start becoming more aware and get really curious. Like, okay, why do I think that? Why? Why? When I go to buy a bag of chips, I don't feel bad, but when I go to buy a car, I feel really guilty or whatever, right? Or why when I go to buy a new backpack, because I want to go hiking, I feel guilty, but I go to buy a pair of shoes. And that bother me at all. All. It's all money. It's all. All these things come back to internal subconscious and. Or conscious stories you have inside. So until we get to that point and start getting a sense of what money is to you know, it's. It's. It's really a crapshoot depending on each person.
Setting Expectations To Win More Projects
33:25
Jack Jostes
You know, hearing you talk about that, some of the things that I used to tell myself was, you know, oh, I'm not good at math, or I'm not good with money. And at that time, I had a lot of debt. Debt. And then I started reading books about it. I read the book Profit first. I. I realized I hadn't really put a lot of effort into it. I started reading. I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I started reading and listening to sales podcasts and sales books. And one of the sentences from Profit first was, saving is sexy. It was just interesting. He talks about my. I don't know if you've read that book, but I'm like, I've never heard anyone talk about saving being sexy. And I'm like, you know, and it was funny. It was funny. And I'm like, yeah, saving is sexy.
34:16
Jack Jostes
Okay, I'm gonna start saving a little money. And then I did, and then I started investing money, and I. I kind of flipped the script on it. And that then helped me talk about money with People with clients. And then I started making money. So there's. Yeah, it's. It's a funny thing, money.
34:33
Joshua Gillow
Yep. Change your. Change your story, change your life. That's what it is. So if you want to change, and change can be hard for some because it requires you to go in and change the wiring inside of your own mind and your own heart.
34:44
Jack Jostes
So I think part. Part of what I was, you know, part of what I'm. What I, What I see sometimes is people, they love customer service or they feel like they're serving clients, but then they also have this negative idea about being paid well to do that. And I think that this, you know, your book gets into it a little bit, but I see it as an important part of growing your business, is that they're not mutually exclusive. You can make a lot of money and serve a lot of people, and then you could donate money, you could volunteer. You can do so much. What's maybe one of the core steps that you see people struggle with the most?
35:29
Joshua Gillow
Oh, goodness. The most, I would say, is expectations. It's the last core, right? Setting expectations, it's so important. From the very first phone call through the final shaking of hands or whatever, your final step is in your process. Setting expectations is key to everything because you can have a much smoother running process if the client knows what's coming next and agrees to that. So, like, say you're doing your initial phone call and you. Somebody, either you or somebody's taking that initial phone call or you know that contact form comes in, but your first touch with a customer, that's human. And you start setting expectations like, yeah, no problem. Jack will be out on Tuesday at 2 o' clock to take a look for you. And you guys will figure it out from there. All right, Customer's like, cool. Jack's coming out 2:00' clock, Tuesday.
36:14
Joshua Gillow
That's gonna be amazing. Sounds good. But that person has never set any expectations except for a time and the fact you're gonna show up. So when you get there and you're thinking like, well, yeah, I'm gonna do what I always do. I get, I walk around, I give them some ideas, and I'm going to go back and put together a design or proposal, whatever it might be, and like, you have all that plan, but the customer may be thinking, we don't know, they might be thinking you're going to give them a price right there. And deep down they're disappointed because they didn't get a price on site and you had no way of ever doing that.
36:42
Joshua Gillow
There was never an expectation set or that the design was going to be free, or that you're going to charge for it, or that it's going to take two weeks to get that back, or the fact that you're going to be running late, because you usually do, and 2 o' clock is probably the best case scenario possible. And then a customer sitting there waiting as you're breaking trust by being late. And then like, there's all of these expectations that have never been said and that there should be both decision makers there, depending on the size of the project and that we see the best value that way. And like, all the way down through, there's always expectations that we would want. We think that they should, again, assumption, right? 90% Of the time, that's where we mess up assumption.
37:16
Joshua Gillow
We just think they're supposed to know that because we do this all the time, the customer should just know. That's how this works. It takes two weeks to get a proposal. It takes a month to get a design, whatever it might be, whatever your timeframes are. It's springtime, we're busy. You can't even get to you until August or September, right? It's like all of these things are things that they're supposed to know. How could they possibly know that, Jack? How could they know that, right? So if we don't set those expectations from the very beginning about what those things look like, when that first phone call is taken and you're having a conversation, you're building rapport. We call that the starter phase, right? You got starters and you got closers. So you got openers. Closers, openers, closers, the starting point, right?
37:51
Joshua Gillow
So the openers in this conversation, they're not there to talk about budget and all those kind of things. The opener, that person in the office has taken those calls. It's about building connection, building rapport, building a connection, setting them up to win, right? Setting not just the client up to win, but whoever's going to be the closer going out to that site for them to win too. And if you already know what the closer is going to do, that's why systems and processes are so important specifically in communication. Because if you as the opener, know exactly what the closer is going to do next you can set them up for success. It's when your front desk takes the call and they say, yeah, no problem, we're going to send Jack out 2:00 clock on Tuesday.
38:27
Joshua Gillow
And then the closer gets there and there's no cons. There's no framework of anything that's going to happen there, what to expect, what they're going to leave with, none of that stuff that they're basically, without saying anything by omission, they're basically not setting anybody up for success. They're just dropping them into a black hole and just going to be like, I don't know if there's going to be two decision makers there. I kind of know what they want. I really don't know at all. They though let's let Jack figure that when he goes out on the Tuesday, right. So there's no queuing up. It's like that opener, it's so important for that one to set the tone of everything that's going to come next. That can be in a five or ten minute conversation. And then once they've earned the right to your time.
39:03
Joshua Gillow
You hear how I said the language? Earn the right to your time. Then however you engage next, whether it's another discovery call, which is what we recommend, to be able to have a little bit more time, you, the person who's going to be closing with them, to have a conversation before you ever go out to them so that you can make sure that everybody's on the right page. Because your openers don't go deep into budget, go into all those deeper pieces. Because they're not specialists in that. They can't be specialists in everything. They just be specialists in building connection, building relationships. And then when they build that relationship that people are happy to see Jack, they can't wait for you to come out or get on that call first with them and then go out.
39:37
Joshua Gillow
So it, one cues the other for success and the homeowner wins the entire process. That's where contractors miss it because, you know, Isabelle in the office, she, she cues everybody up. Sounds good. You go out on Tuesday and then the closers go out and they're like, I don't know, they didn't show up. I don't even know what they want. I saw on the sheet they're looking for a patio and a seating wall. Okay, great. That's what I sold them. I don't know why they didn't call me back. Well, because you never build a connection. This is about building relationships, not just revenue.
How To Double Your Close Rate With Better Discovery
40:02
Jack Jostes
I'm with you on that there. You know, there's a lot of overlap between my book, the Tree of Good Fortune. This book is clearly, it's mainly focused on sales, part of what I write in my book and what I try and help my clients do is to build that call into the process because so often exactly what you're sharing happens. And I remember I was hosting a mastermind at NALP for their breakfast of champions on design build and this guy told me that he had spent four hours. You told a four hour story in here of driving out for a four hour. No. And the office scheduled a call for him or a meeting rather, and he just went out and the prospect had $2,000 budget for what started at 20,000.
40:52
Jack Jostes
And I think what, you know, this expectations a lot of this book, thinking of how this serves the client, some people might think, oh well, I don't want to have a qualification call because they're going to feel like I'm selling to them. No, no, you're serving them by figuring out, what do you need? Hey, is there anyone else who lives on this property that might be involved in this project?
41:16
Joshua Gillow
You know what the most amazing thing is, Jack? It's a shifting for our industry. My main objective in writing this book is to announce to the world my mission in our industry. Specifically landscapers, hardscapers and outdoor living professionals. That's who I want to talk to. Our people, the people I grew up with, the people that I know best, that I've been in this long enough with. Right. So, so it's this idea that if you take the call, somebody in your office takes the call, they queue you up and you go out without much of a conversation. It's just like, all right, go out Tuesday, 2 o' clock and you go out and do that. That'll work. Industry average for closing rate, you know, that people actually sign up for things, give you money after you spent your time is about 25 to 30%.
41:55
Joshua Gillow
I've seen it as low as 8, I've seen it as high as 90. The average is about 25 to 30%. So what that means is that, hey, I got a call in the office. I set you, I schedule. You basically have a scheduler in the office. I schedule the person to go out. That'll work about one in three times. And that's good if you have nothing but time to piss away. But I don't know about you, Jack, but in a business I don't have time to piss away. I've got family, I've got a marriage to work with. So it's so important to understand that time is precious. And if you just stop for one second as the industry and realize that the discovery process, that person coming and they scheduled the discovery call.
42:32
Joshua Gillow
If you actually have a call in the comfort of your office before you ever burn a dollar's worth of gas now, which doesn't take you very far, and you take 10, 15, 20 minutes as the closer to have that conversation with them, that your. Your closing rates go from the 25, 30% north of 50%. North of 50%. My goal is to get everybody above 75% closing rate in our industry so that we can get our time back and the freedom that we started our businesses to have, we're going to get it back by having better conversations up front and preserving our time.
43:00
Jack Jostes
I'm with you on that. We, we. People need. You have to. Right. Your family needs you at home. From. For me, the shift for me was when I had kids, and I was at this time, I was literally driving all around the Denver Front Range area, meeting with people, and I was working 60, 80 hours a week. And I remember I had a business coach who before I had kids said, hey, how much do you work now? And I'm like, 80 hours a week.
43:27
Joshua Gillow
Week.
43:28
Jack Jostes
And he's like, what are you going to do when you have a kid? I'm like, I'm going to work 80 hours a week. He's like, you won't be able to. You're going to be exhausted. He like, warned me of, like, really basic dude stuff. And I'm like, no, I'll be fine. I'm young. It's good. And then, oh, man, I was exhausted and I got angry. I'm like, no, I'm not going to drive around like this anymore. And that's when I finally started qualifying. And well, Joshua, it's been a real pleasure having you here. And tell us, where can we get your book? Where can we connect with you? Where can we learn about your podcast?
Where To Get The Core 10 Sales Playbook
44:04
Joshua Gillow
Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me on here, Jack. I love sharing this stuff. It has absolutely changed my life and has changed the lives of so many around the country now with the blessing of being able to share this. But the best place to go, if you're listening, you're like, I'm curious about what's in this book. You can go to Audible, look up the Core 10 sales playbook is the only one there like it. You can grab a copy there. You can go on Amazon and you can grab a copy there. Hardcover, paperback, you can grab kind of Kindle, so. And audible's there too. So anything you want, any way you will like to listen I know I was a huge listener when I first started reading, if you will. Reading air quotes, right.
44:36
Joshua Gillow
I love the content but I didn't have the focus or the time to sit around. So I would just get back then it was cassettes, right? CDs and cassettes. You remember those days, Jack, don't you? For sure, yeah. And so you can get everything on Amazon.
44:49
Jack Jostes
So it's funny you mentioned cassettes because. So I started my first sales job. I did door to door sales as a milkman at the dairy farm. And I drove these 2 ton box trucks and they had a cassette player and so I had one, I bought a Dolly Parton cassette tape at the thrift store next to the dairy and a bunch of other stuff. And then I bought Rich Dad, Poor dad and I had like a ipod with the cable that you plug into the headphone. Jack, that has. Anyways, yeah, for sure. Get, get the audiobook because hey, if you're listening to this and you're driving around, next time you go and lose a sale on the way home, download Joshua's book on audible. Listen to it on the way home. Right.
45:36
Joshua Gillow
We talk a lot about the pre qualification process. We give you the five pillars of all of that and how you can start integrating. My goal with this book is to be the fundamental foundational book for our industry that no matter where you are, whether you're doing well north of a million or whether you're struggling to get to the million dollar line, that you can utilize principles that are in here, these are timeless principles. These aren't principles that just work for 2026. And this is how you gotta, you know, be manipulative and all this. This is core integrity based ways of being a better listener and to be able to serve your customers at a higher level, that is be able to charge premium as well all the way through the entire process.
46:13
Joshua Gillow
So I wanted this to be our starting point because I don't know that it's ever been written like this for our exact industry that struggles and focuses on an exact such a specified skill set of larger projects and all the craziness that we deal with the weather and all that stuff.
46:28
Jack Jostes
So yeah, it's a great audio book and it has scripts and role plays, things that you could literally listen to and go use today. So check it out. I'll put links in the show notes And Joshua Gillo, thanks again for coming on the landscapers guide.
46:42
Joshua Gillow
Thank you Jack for having me.