00:00 – Why Letting People Go Is So Hard (and Necessary)
00:00
Jack Jostes
Having quality also means having tough conversations with people.
00:05
Peggy Berns
There was a period of time where a couple managers that just wanted to do everything their way. Admittedly, I was a little bit afraid if they left, this was gonna make a hole that I can't do everything.
00:16
Jack Jostes
How did you become unafraid?
00:18
Peggy Berns
Because I didn't want to be held hostage anymore. I'm done with that.
00:23
Jack Jostes
Hey, everyone. Welcome to The Landscaper's Guide Podcast. Right now I'm in person with Peggy Berns, the owner of Berns Landscaping. They're in the Detroit metro area. What are we doing right now?
00:35
Peggy Berns
We just finished shooting a video for me.
00:37
Jack Jostes
We did, yeah. So we're in Grand Rapids right now. We just did a teleprompter video shoot. I also interviewed some of your employees. We got some headshots done. We're here for the SIMA Symposium. Are you going to the Symposium?
00:50
Peggy Berns
I'm going to go to the trade show portion of it tomorrow, and then another employee's coming in. We're going to switch places. I'm going to go back to the office.
00:58
Jack Jostes
Cool. Well, we've got our mobile video studio. It's been really fun. We're in this cool Airbnb with a neat brick wall.
01:04 – How Peggy Took Over and Transformed Her Family Business
01:04
Jack Jostes
We finished early, so I wanted to have you on the podcast to first just share some of your story. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what does your company do?
01:12
Peggy Berns
Yeah, so we're a full-service landscape maintenance company. We also do design, build services. We're in the metro Detroit area. We have about 40 employees and I think our goal is to have a great team and continually get better.
01:24
Jack Jostes
I love that. And so tell me a little bit about your background. You grew up in the green industry.
01:28
Peggy Berns
I did. I grew up. We had like a vegetable garden, but it was like 20 acres, so were manually picking that. We had a greenhouse garden center. So were in retail, in wholesale. We did. We did a lot of stuff as young kids.
01:43
Jack Jostes
So did the greenhouse. Did you guys grow plants?
01:46
Peggy Berns
We did.
01:46
Jack Jostes
What did you grow?
01:47
Peggy Berns
We grew all sorts of annuals, we grew poinsettias, we grew mulms. We did year long growing of plants.
01:54
Jack Jostes
Do you consider poinsettias perennials or annuals?
01:58
Peggy Berns
I would consider it an annual.
02:00
Jack Jostes
Okay, I would too. But aren't they actually a perennial?
02:03
Peggy Berns
Yes. There are people that will save them year after year, but it's very tricky because they have to have some form of darkness, you know, an amount of time of darkness in order to get the red leaf on.
02:14
Jack Jostes
I've done it.
02:14
Peggy Berns
You have?
02:15
Jack Jostes
I've done it in my mom's basement. I've tried as an adult and failed twice. So it's just an interesting thing. Cause I worked at a garden center.
02:25
Peggy Berns
Oh, that's right.
02:26
Jack Jostes
And I always thought they were annuals, because we would just sell them at Christmas time. But then I learned later that, no, you can keep them and they can bloom again.
02:38
Peggy Berns
Takes a little bit of work. And they're kind of, like, very sensitive to the watering. So if you're not watering it correctly and giving them enough of the darkness.
02:47
Jack Jostes
Then I've definitely killed many of them or made them look awful in the process. Well, that's great. So you grew up in the industry, and then how did Berns Landscaping come about?
02:57
Peggy Berns
So my husband started it out of high school, and they just went door to door cutting lawns for neighbors. And then it just kind of built from there, like, you know, oh, we can do the shrub trimming now. Oh, let's plant some flowers. And so it just kind of developed over time into, you know, what it is today, doing full service. So, like, him and his high school buddies would, you know, jump in their, you know, their Country Squire wagon and go cut grass.
03:22
Jack Jostes
That's amazing. And so you now own the company and run it.
03:26
Peggy Berns
Correct.
03:27
Jack Jostes
Can you tell us a little bit about some of the story?
03:29
Peggy Berns
Yeah. So he. My husband was kind of losing interest in the business. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't his passion anymore. So he decided to go pursue his passion. And then landscaping is my passion. So it just worked out great that I was able to kind of take over from there.
03:46 – Recognizing When the Wrong People Are Holding You Back
03:46
Jack Jostes
And so during that phase, though, some of the quality became a challenge. So, I mean, that was really what I wanted to talk to you about today, was.
03:52
Peggy Berns
It was.
03:53
Jack Jostes
Was quality. And having quality also means having tough conversations with people.
04:00
Peggy Berns
Yes. Yeah. We got a little lackadaisical with, you know, some of the employees, how things were being managed. Some of the employees we let stay how things were being done. And so that became kind of my focus. I didn't do it all at once. I kind of, like, you know, eased into it. But I feel like we're in a really good direction right now of where we're going and getting, you know, managers who want to be there doing what we're asking them to do. The employees want to be there.
04:29
Jack Jostes
Yeah.
04:30
Peggy Berns
So, yeah, but it's. There was a period of time where, like, I've had a couple managers that just wanted to do everything their way. And I was. I guess, admittedly, I was a little bit afraid, because if they left. This was going to make a hole that I can't do everything. So how is that void going to get filled? How is that void going to get filled? And they just kind of worked out where they, you know, they left. And one of them was unexpected, and I was pretty angry and pretty overwhelmed. But in that moment, I just was like, you know what? I'm not going to be afraid of this anymore. I'm not going to be afraid to have my company look bad because you know more than me about how to do something. Like, I will figure it out.
05:18
Peggy Berns
Like, I am done with that.
05:19
Jack Jostes
I like that. So that was something. Before we pressed record, were talking about becoming unafraid of firing people.
05:27
Peggy Berns
Yes.
05:27
Jack Jostes
And I wanted to start with the fear, though. Like, I've had it, and I've had people on my team for too long, and I was afraid, oh, crap, this person does a lot. What am I gonna do? I can't do everything. And then I've learned that keeping people too long, like, once they're gone, I'm like, wow, why did I wait so long? And I know that every business owner goes through this because I interviewed your son today. Right. You said you grew up in a family business. And so there's the family dynamic. There are people Logan mentioned somebody that has worked there for 35 years. And he's what, 22?
06:06
Peggy Berns
He's 24. Yeah.
06:07
Jack Jostes
Or 24.
06:08
Peggy Berns
Yeah.
06:08
Jack Jostes
Right. So he's the first person when he was, like, little. So there's all these interpersonal challenges. And that's the joy of the business, too. When you have those relationships that are working really well, how did you become unafraid to.
06:23
Peggy Berns
Because I didn't want to be held hostage anymore. You know, it's like, you might know how to do this. I don't know how to do this. I don't have a desire to learn how to do that, but I'll find someone who can do that. And so I'm just not going to be held hostage anymore. That's basically what I decided, that I'm done with that.
06:40 – How to Build Confidence as a Landscape Business Owner
06:40
Jack Jostes
When was that shift for you?
06:42
Peggy Berns
Probably two years ago.
06:45
Jack Jostes
So during the time that we've worked together.
06:47
Peggy Berns
Yeah, it was during the time we worked together.
06:50
Jack Jostes
Well. And yeah, so we've worked together for, I think, four or five years.
06:53
Peggy Berns
Yeah.
06:54
Jack Jostes
So we've worked together through Covid. It's now 2025. You've come out on the other side of it, and you've emerged, and you're fearless. You're fearless.
07:03
Peggy Berns
Right.
07:04
Jack Jostes
How did your staff respond? To that shift.
07:07
Peggy Berns
Oh, there's a couple people who left that were for the better, and they were a little bit irritated with me, you know, like, I can't believe you're letting that happen. But then it's like, once the person's gone, they realized that it's like, well, the void that we thought was gonna be isn't that big of a void, you know? And then they can see now how it's better. But I think some people just, like, they get caught in status quo. Like, this is how it's always been. We've always done that. We've worked around your incompetency, but we don't have to do that anymore. I think everybody's seen it for the better, But I think in the moment, it's been a little bit harder.
07:44
Jack Jostes
But have there been people who are like, I know that when I've made the decision to let some people go who needed to, I actually had somebody who I would consider an A player come to me the next day. They called me. They said I was about to quit because of that other person. And so had I waited any longer, I would have still needed to fire the other person, but I would have lost an A player. And that's something that, unless you've managed or hired people, is, I think, hard sometimes for my team to understand. Sometimes I need to let people. Some people get it. They're like, cool, I'm glad you did that, because I was going to leave because of that person.
08:22 – Culture Killers: What to Watch for in Your Team
08:22
Jack Jostes
And then do you ever find that sometimes people are shocked, though, that somebody was let go?
08:28
Peggy Berns
Yeah, I think the last two or three people that have left, whether it was we let them go or they chose to look, I think people were shocked that they left, but they didn't realize that it was going to better without them. Another person left, and that was probably the biggest. When that person left, it was my office manager. When they left, that was the. The biggest turning point for me, where it's like, you know what? It's annoying right now, I'm afraid I'm annoyed because now I'm so overwhelmed, but I'm still gonna be okay. Like, I just knew I was gonna be okay. But I know for a fact that person, probably four people plus, left because of them.
09:08
Jack Jostes
Wow. Have you thought about calling them? Have you tried reaching back out to those four?
09:12
Peggy Berns
We have, we have. But they, you know, they're onto their own little careers and stuff now. But.
09:17
Jack Jostes
Well, I'll just share. I've had two people who have now worked here for one of them over seven years, and the other one approaching four or five who left and came back. So I think that how you leave things with people is important. And I always try and let people go respectfully.
09:43
Peggy Berns
Yes.
09:44
Jack Jostes
Because it doesn't need. Yeah, you don't know. And those two people also left professionally respectfully. Some people don't. Some people, you know, freak out and leave and they need to make it this big personal thing when they quit. I don't know that it needs. I don't think it needs to be that way.
10:02
Peggy Berns
I don't understand the energy to be vindictive like that. Energy doesn't make sense to me. One thing, though, I was thinking about while you were talking is that I do have a guy coming back. He's gonna start at the beginning of July, that I know he left because of the office manager and he's coming back.
10:18
Jack Jostes
Oh, good for you. That's amazing.
10:21 – The Real Costs of Avoiding Tough Leadership Decisions
10:21
Jack Jostes
So for the folks listening right now, there is someone listening. You're listening right now, and you know that you have somebody on your team that is holding you hostage. You do, right. So there are people listening who are like, oh, no, I have so and so employee. I find if I'm thinking about them on the weekend, if I'm thinking about them at night, if they wake me up at three in the morning and I'm angry, you got to get them on. Does that ever happen to you?
10:49
Peggy Berns
That is so true. Yes. Those are exactly the people that you're just like, all right, I'm done with you. I gotta be done with you because of that. Because you are occupying too much time.
10:58
Jack Jostes
So that. That's. I think the most stressful thing about owning a company. Company is having that feeling. Once you reach that point, you know, it's time to go and maybe you can know sooner. I guess my question for you is for the people who are currently suffering on the weekend or at 3:00am or whatever, listening, how do you. What. What would you tell them to do to find the strength to let that person go and not be afraid?
11:24
Peggy Berns
Yeah. I think for me especially was like, I knew I could find somebody to do it either whether it be another employee. Like, I had Matt that you interviewed earlier. Like, the office manager left, and she was very good with computers. But you know what? So is Matt. Matt killed it. Me and Matt put Aspire together. We. We got it off the ground and running, but it's like, yeah, it would have never been that good. So it's like, there's somebody else in your company that can help with that, you just don't know it or like. And I've also hired a vendor to help with my bookkeeping. And then that's somebody else that I don't have to. Not an employee. You know what I mean? And I know they're a company.
12:01
Jack Jostes
That's a great point. Because you might have somebody that can do all of these things and they're the only person, but there's probably a freelancer or a vendor.
12:11
Peggy Berns
Somebody will help you.
12:11
Jack Jostes
Somebody can do part of it.
12:14
Peggy Berns
But I think that's the biggest key. When you start complaining on the weekend, it's time they have to go. And I did that. I did that for stressful.
12:22
Jack Jostes
And it sucks. The joy, because that then takes the emotional and even spiritual energy away from running your company.
12:31
Peggy Berns
I love what I do. And then when I have to deal with that, it's like, oh, I can't stand it. And it's like, that just needs to be my automatic red flag.
12:38
Jack Jostes
I'm in a mastermind with other agency owners. And they were talking about a quadrant. And so one on the X axis, if you will, there's high performer and then there's culture fit at the top. And so maybe somebody. They're not quite performing well, but they're at a B level and they're a culture fit. And that's somebody that you can coach up to an A player. Right. And then there are C players who just. They don't really give a crap about the quality. You were telling me about. I think you literally had an employee that was laying down while they were weeding.
13:15
Peggy Berns
Yes.
13:16
Jack Jostes
Right. So that's somebody who's probably a C player. And then there's a special quadrant. And this is the most challenging one that I found is when somebody is highly skilled and they're not a culture fit. So that is actually a toxic thing.
13:31
Peggy Berns
And that's the hardest person to get rid of.
13:33
Jack Jostes
It is because they're crushing work. They might be crushing the tasks. And I think one of the challenges that I'm trying to communicate with my team is that somebody could be crushing their tasks and they could be an amazing coworker and teammate to other people, but they're a terrible experience for their manager or for the owner of the company. And that sometimes often goes unseen. So I haven't quite figured out a way to tell people that's what's happening.
14:04
Peggy Berns
Yeah, I guess the biggest takeaway they could get is, like, if you are spending time off of work talking about this person or complaining about that person, that's your red flag.
14:13
Jack Jostes
Yeah. You know, so maybe I just need to share that story with people.
14:16 – Jack’s Journey: From Theater Kid to Landscaping Marketer
14:16
Peggy Berns
So I know you said that you were. You worked at like a landscape nursery. Was it in high school?
14:23
Jack Jostes
Yeah, it was in high school. So it was a garden center. It was also a nursery and a flower shop.
14:30
Peggy Berns
Oh, okay.
14:31
Jack Jostes
So they. I don't know that they actually did any landscape work.
14:34
Peggy Berns
Okay. So it was just a nursery. That's what we had. We had a nursery and a flower shop too. Even though you did that, like, what made you decide to. Your. Your clientele is landscapers. Like the. Was it just because of that? But there had to be some passion or something behind that.
14:49
Jack Jostes
Yeah. So I've been performing since I was about five. I've been doing theater. I played violin as a kid. I played in bands. I thought I wanted to be an actor for real. I went and studied acting. I also have always loved writing. And so I double majored in journalism and I went for it. I had a band, went for it. We had a minivan and we rented a house together. And it was terrible. We didn't make any money. And I realized like, wow, I really don't want to do this. And journalism was like dying. This was like 2008. There were no jobs. And so I started doing sales at a dairy farm and realized I like doing sales. And then I was really curious. I got bored selling milk and I wanted to do something with writing.
15:37
Jack Jostes
And I started selling a product that helped people get found online. But it was a scam. It was a multi level pyramid scam. But then it got me really curious. I met somebody who taught me how it really works. And I started a freelance business doing digital marketing, leveraging the skills that I built managing my band. Because I did all of our sales, I booked gigs, I knew how to like make flyers and do email and social media. And like, that was a marketing skill. So I was more interested in that than the music. Long story short, I became a public speaker for Constant Contact, the email marketing company. And I became one of their top selling from the stage speakers. And I would go and speak, they would have me go and speak places.
16:24
Jack Jostes
And my job was to get the audience to sign up with a trial for Constant Contact. And so they would pay me for each person that I did that with. And one of the places they sent me was the Pro Green Expo, a landscape and garden center show in Colorado. And I presented the concept contact stuff. And I was like, hey, by the way, I used to work at a garden center And I just found that the audience, I. I connected with them, and I knew. I knew what a garden center was. I knew that it was different from a plant nursery, and I knew what an arborist and a landscaper was. And their experience was, most marketers thought they were all farmers or something.
16:59
Peggy Berns
Yeah.
17:00
Jack Jostes
And then, like, what they did. So I got a couple clients, and then they got results, and then they referred me, and then I spoke there again, and I had the stories. And then all of a sudden, like, over a few years, it became about 30% of my business. And I realized I loved it. I actually really like talking to the green industry.
17:21
Peggy Berns
Okay.
17:21
Jack Jostes
So it kind of happened organically in that way. I never would have thought when I started out that I'd be focusing on the landscape industry, but I love it. I love it because, I mean, we get to build websites for landscape companies all over the country. And what you guys do is cool. Like, it literally looks cool. Plants are different around the country. Design is different. There's construction. We do snow. We work with people in snow. So it has become a passion of mine. And then I enjoy meeting your son today, you know, so I get to work with small business owners who have these family businesses. And the storytelling aspect of journalism and theater and public speaking is all part of what I do. But then I get paid to do it because I do stuff that helps you make money, Right.
18:14
Peggy Berns
Well, that's the nice thing is because, like, I don't want to be an expert at that. I don't have time to do that. That wouldn't bring me joy to do that. But it brings me joy to have it done and I can keep doing what I love doing.
18:26
Jack Jostes
Yeah. You mentioned earlier that you don't think about your website ever.
18:30
Peggy Berns
Nope.
18:31
Jack Jostes
I'm like, cool. I was thinking, as you said, that hopefully your landscape maintenance clients don't think about their landscape.
18:38
Peggy Berns
No, I don't want them to.
18:39
Jack Jostes
I mean, I'm sure. I bet that they go and enjoy it. They go and have dinner outside. They plan their lawn. They what. Whatever they're doing, but they're not thinking about fertilization and pest control and irrigation systems and sprinkler zones and all the things that you guys just take care of.
18:57
Peggy Berns
They should not have to.
18:58
Jack Jostes
So that must feel good.
19:00
Peggy Berns
It does. It does to me.
19:02
Jack Jostes
It's fun. And then the camera side of it, you were asking me about, how did I get into all this stuff? I had a business partner for a few years in the beginning who's really experienced in video, and so he taught me a lot, and I was often on camera or helping manage clients and so writing scripts. And then he and I split apart amicably. I actually still hire him quite a bit, but went remote as a company six months before COVID Just totally unaware of COVID coming and the whole work from home thing. And I used to always have a person in the office who did the camera work for me for our video podcast that we're doing now. And when went remote, I'm like, well, I gotta learn this.
19:45
Jack Jostes
And that became a whole new passion about lighting and cameras and gear and audio. Well, thank you.
19:52
Peggy Berns
It's impressive that you have it and impressive that you know how to use it.
19:56
Jack Jostes
To me, what's fun is partly just packing it all up into my cases. I have two cases that fit everything. Lighting stands, three cameras, teleprompter. And that, to me, is exciting because 15 years ago, a teleprompter was this enormous contraption. They were starting at $5,000. They were so clunky. And we used one today that runs off of an iPhone. And so it's, like, tiny.
20:27
Peggy Berns
Yeah, that was amazing.
20:29
Jack Jostes
To me, it's partly this, like, gear puzzle of, like, how much stuff can I bring with me on an airplane?
20:35
Peggy Berns
Right, Right. Yeah, it's nice. I'm impressed that you know how to use it all.
20:39
Jack Jostes
Well, thanks.
20:40
Peggy Berns
Yeah.
20:40 – Why You Shouldn’t Be Afraid of Video (Peggy’s Experience)
20:40
Jack Jostes
I enjoyed working with you today on your videos. It was fun.
20:43
Peggy Berns
That was really fun.
20:44
Jack Jostes
Yeah, it was you. And you did a great job. I can't believe you haven't done video before. So for people listening, who they're maybe thinking of doing video with us, how was it?
20:52
Peggy Berns
It was a lot easier than I thought it was gonna be. Like, I literally. I was thinking this morning, I even told Robert this. I was like, you know, I was thinking I might have to, like, take a little shot of tequila just to kind of take the edge off. But I never felt that way.
21:06
Jack Jostes
Yeah.
21:06
Peggy Berns
You know, I never felt, like, nervous or anything. You know, like, stumbled over a few words, but whatever. You know what I mean? It was. It was easy.
21:13
Jack Jostes
Well, good. That's how it should be. For folks listening, do not be afraid. Be fearless, like Peggy Berns. And if you're thinking about people on the weekend, it's time for them to go.
21:24
Peggy Berns
Time for them to go.
21:25 – Final Thoughts & How to Connect with Peggy Berns
21:25
Jack Jostes
Cool, Peggy. Well, for folks listening, where can we network with you and learn more?
21:29
Peggy Berns
Yeah, you could give me a call. My number is 586-350-5993.
21:34
Jack Jostes
I'm happy to talk to anybody that's really cool. I'm going to put that in the show notes. And thanks for being willing to do that.
21:40
Peggy Berns
Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it.
21:42
Jack Jostes
All right. Thank you. Hey, it's Jack Jostes. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Peggy Berns. That was super fun. You know, I love working with Peggy, people like Peggy who run family-owned landscape companies. So if you run a family-owned landscape company and you're looking to get more of the right leads finding you and you want to dial in your sales process so it's more efficient and you get more time back in your life. Let's have a 15-Minute Marketing Brainstorm. This is where we're going to help you figure out who is your Hell Yes Customer now, and where are you growing into the future, and what marketing is going to help you get there. So book yours at landscapersguide.com/brainstorm and see our show notes for a link to that. We'll look forward to having that conversation with you.
22:27
Jack Jostes
And thanks for tuning in to The Landscaper’s Guide. I hope to see you in the next episode.
Show Notes:
Book a 15 Minute Marketing Brainstorm: landscapersguide.com/brainstorm
Watch the full episode + see the transcript at: https://landscapersguide.com/podcast/
Tell us where to send your beef jerky: https://landscapersguide.com/toolbox
Connect with Peggy Berns
- Phone: 586-350-5993
- Website: bernslandscape.com
See upcoming live + virtual events: landscapersguide.com/events