If you've ever experienced depression, why you just might be a human being. And listening to today's episode is going to share some ways that you can manage depression. Today's episode is especially relevant for business owners or what our guest calls, Business Builders. Check out this episode for some insights into what kinds of depression do successful business people experience, and why would it happen when things are going well? Why everyone needs something to look forward to in their calendar, and stay to the end to find out some thoughtful, free gifts our guest will ship to you in the mail.
Hey everyone, it's Jack Jostes and welcome to The Landscaper's Guide. This show is all about inspiring the landscape industry to build great businesses that serve you, your people and your community. But that big impact can't happen without you, the business builder, the business leader doing well personally. Depression is something that we all experience. I work through it all the time, and I learn about it from managing my team, from working with clients. It's just part of life. And while I'm by no means an expert on the topic of depression and neither is our guest, some of the things that we talk about have really helped me personally. So that's why I wanted to share it with you in today's podcast. Now, one of the things that we talk about is having cool events in the calendar. So I'm hoping to see you at one of our events.
We're going to be exhibiting at the Elevate conference with the NALP. Stop by booth number 1128. We're going to be raffling away a Traeger grill. We also have a virtual event, The Landscaper Summit on October 6th, and a whole bunch of other really cool things that you can come and meet us either virtually or in person. So check it out at landscapersguide.com/events. And now let's get into the conversation with Wayne Herring.
Hey, everyone. Welcome to The Landscapers Guide. Today, I'm excited to have a repeat guest on the show, Wayne Herring. He is a business and life growth coach and the founder of Business Builder Camp. Personally, I've been working with Wayne for maybe six years now in various capacities as a business coach, as a life coach. A lot of times when you hear life coach, you think, oh, what's really going on? Wayne is legit. He's helped me tremendously, right, life coach. I don't know. My experience-
Wayne Herring:
My wife doesn't want anybody to think that I'm a life coach so there you go.
Jack Jostes:
Right. Yeah, I understand. There are a lot of people who claim they're a life coach and it's like, are you really helping people? Wayne has had a big impact on my personal life and the business. We just had a coaching call, and your business impacts your life, and one of the things that I've enjoyed with Wayne is talking about integration. I think people talk about work life balance, and it's more about integration.
So I'm excited to have you here, Wayne. We've been messaging and kind of keeping in touch about the topic of depression, right, and how to handle it. And neither of us are therapists, right? This isn't about therapy, but there are things that you can do, and some of the things I've learned from you that can really help people. So that's going to be really the focus of the conversation. Tell us first a little, what else should we know about you that I haven't already said? And what is Business Builder Camp?
Wayne Herring:
Quickly I'm going to say it's really great to talk about this topic, because I think so often the people that I work with, people that you speak to through this podcast, are hard-driving people, builders, competent people who in a lot of ways are self-made folks.
And the topic of depression can feel like a touchy one, but yet just putting it out in the sunshine so to speak and putting some light on it starts a conversation. It makes it okay. People that really seem to have their shit together and who are successful, are sometimes victims of depression and where that might lead. So yeah, I think it's really good that we put it out here and talk about it.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah, absolutely.
Wayne Herring:
And I didn't answer your question.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah, go ahead.
What Is Business Builder Camp?
Wayne Herring:
Father of four children. I always probably say that first. Just had my 20th wedding anniversary, married to Catherine. We live in Pennsylvania, we're on a little farm, 20 acres here. I'm in my coaching building. And I love the work that I do. And I also love looking out at the field and getting to watch cows and things of that nature. Business builders are, that's what I've dedicated my professional life to. Yeah.
You and I have been working for a long time together, and it's been a pleasure to watch you grow and thrive business life and with your family. And yeah, I've been doing the work for eight and a half years. And like you, there's a bunch of other people that I get to work with week in and week out and see their journey as they build enterprises and different types of businesses. And the collection of people is Business Builder Camp. It's the people that I get to serve.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. It's all about the people. And you and I originally connected for sales management coaching while I was starting to manage sales and account managers. And while I had personally done well doing sales myself, learning to manage other people was a challenge. And I read Sales Management For Dummies by Butch Bellah.
Wayne Herring:
Yeah.
Jack Jostes:
And I reached out to Butch and I'm like, "Butch, can you work with me?" And he's like, "I can't, but there's this guy, Wayne." So we originally worked on that. And then it evolved into other things. Today, we were talking about disk personality assessments, and recruiting, and how to hire the right people who are energized for the role that you have. And that's been really, really great. One of the things I realized as I got a cup of coffee before we started this recording was, how much that helps people enjoy the work they do, right?
I think small business can be such a great experience for the people who work there and the people who run it when you have the right people, when they're in a role where they're going to naturally thrive.
Wayne Herring:
Right.
Jack Jostes:
That's really rewarding. And I've been fortunate to have some people who have worked with me for over five years because they were matched with the right role and were able to continue working together. So the people impact has come in a lot of different ways from sales to management and personality and things. I saw a post of you. You have some serious lawn mowing to do on your property. And you had posted about just starting mowing. And I really enjoyed that. What did you mean by that?
Wayne Herring:
The particular post you're referring to was we bought this piece of ground. It was 20 acres and it had been farmed and grazed. So part of that had been grazed down by the creek, and then the rest of it was farm, but it had been fallow and not farm for probably three or four years when we bought the property.
And so we got this 20 acres, we had a farm dream, we had something we wanted to create. We had been already raising chickens and pigs on my dad's piece of property, but we wanted to do that and create that here and have a family homestead. And the 20 acres that we bought, there was no road, there was no electricity or water a well or anything. And I'd never done anything like that before. And so a project like that is fun, but there's all kinds of question marks and all kinds of places where I did get uncomfortable and thought to myself, I don't know how to do this, but I did know that I wanted to do it.
And I knew it was important to us. Yeah, in that poster you're referring to, I had a picture of some of the first days mowing here with a big brush hog.
And there were a lot of trees at the time, and just start mowing or just do something, right? Whether it's a business build dream, or just yesterday, I had a client telling me about fixing the engine of a classic car. And the first step was to talk to people who had done it before. So we always need a first step. We need to find something that's doable. And in this case, just starting to mow was what I could do, what I had control over, so.
How Does Depression Relate To Success In Business?
Jack Jostes:
I like that. And that relates to the topic of the conversation around depression, right? In some ways. So, so you work with business builders, they're typically leaders of companies. They're from the outside successful people who have their act together, why would they be depressed and how does that relate to success in business? I think it's just an interesting topic. And I like that we're starting to hear more about it and people are talking about it because it is a real thing. And it's okay to talk about it. We should talk about it.
Wayne Herring:
Yeah. I have times where I have what I'll call depression thoughts, and depression thoughts lead to feelings. And I might be feeling the thinking that I'm having at that moment. And when I work with business owner clients, almost always just like you, and maybe because the barrier of what life coaching is I don't go to market so to speak as a life coach. People come to me because they want to grow their business. And that's where we start. That's where the conversation starts.
And I love growing businesses, and I love seeing businesses thrive, and I have experience in that arena. Gradually, or sometimes suddenly if something's going on, as I share with people my life and I get to hear about their life and that integration of business in life, there may be an opportunity where either I hear something and what they say and how, because it could be as simple as asking people, how are you?
Right? How are you? And if I really slow down and listen, when I ask, how are you? And if I'm not thinking of my own stuff, but I'm paying attention to either the person on the Zoom or for your business owners if they're paying attention to one of their employees. When I ask that question, how are you? And if I listen fully, not just with my ears, but also by watching and by being in tune with who they are, sometimes I sense that something's up, right? Because when people ask me, how am I?
There are times where I say good because there's a whole lot of days that are good or great. But every now and then when somebody asks me how I am, if I'm to be completely honest, maybe something had gone on and I might choose as a coach to share about it.
Sometimes I choose not to share about how I'm doing, because I just want to work on their agenda. But somehow or other, there becomes an opening with one of my clients or somebody in one of our group programs to listen and hear what's going on. And that's where we get into feelings of depression. And why does it happen for business owners? Well, like you said, I'm not a psychologist, so I don't necessarily know why it happens and I'm not as interested in why it happens. I want to know looking forward how we can help people work through that.
When you're in this highly productive life of an entrepreneur, and when you have people depending on you and when you are trying to do your best and trying to succeed, I don't know, I think it's just natural that you go through periods where you're feeling human and sometimes just that feeling of being human and having not ultimate control over everything can put you in a down place for a period of time.
Why Does It Happen When Things Seem To Be Going Well?
Jack Jostes:
What about when things are going really well? I know some of my own experiences like the first 10 years of running a company kind of felt like fight or flight. And then we kind of reached a point where it wasn't as much of a fight. Not that it was super easy or I was done, but I remember reaching a point where it was less of the fight or flight or I need to go sell something every single day kind of thing. That sounds really great but for some reason I was depressed by it.
Wayne Herring:
Sure. So if you think about it when we think back through life, when there's been crisis moments, either in business where cash is short, or we need to sell some more to make the month, or in personal life, we don't look forward to a family member being sick or having an accident or something like that. Sure, we don't want that. But if we really look back on it, most of us when we're in the middle of those things are on it, we're tuned up, ready to go, right?
And our bodies naturally respond, and the endorphins are going and boom, we got this thing. But yeah, not only you, I've observed plenty of business owners that when they then hit the point of so called success, they're bored. That's one thing is it's boredom and not having something to look forward to and feeling like maybe this thing I've built now, now I just got to operate it day after day after day can lead to down feelings.
The other thing I've heard from people is the more successful you get, the more responsibility you have, and the more it feels like maybe this could all disappear tomorrow type of thing, and fear can come in.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. And for sure, as you grow a company, if you have staff or vendors or all of the things that come with that. Yeah, you can feel afraid like, oh wow, what if this all goes away and all of these people lose their job? And I remember one time you helped me realize, well, they'd probably go get another job. And that kind of gave me a lot of peace. Not that I want to lose my people, but the fact is it's really hard to find good people and when you have them, they'd probably be fine.
Adventures And Hobbies For Depression In Business Builders
What about having fun things to do or adventures in as far as Business Builders? I know that this is part of your coaching is you actually have events. We went turkey hunting at Turkey Trot Acres in New York, and that was spectacular, right? And that was an adventure. It was a group of people getting together. Not all of them are turkey hunts. There are other things. You went to the Muhammad Ali training facility.
Wayne Herring:
Right.
Jack Jostes:
So that's part of what you do and there's a reason why. And even if people aren't participating in your events, what role do you see adventures and hobbies and things playing for Business Builders pertaining to this kind of depressing thoughts or feelings, and how does it help them with that?
Wayne Herring:
Interesting. You mentioned the turkey hunt because we did that turkey hunt at a place called Turkey Trot Acres, and the creators, their business builders of Turkey Trot Acres are Pete and Sherry Clare. And I have Pete's voice in my mind fairly often. And he said to me one time, and I have this on video. "Everybody needs something to look forward to.
Everybody needs something to look forward to. It's that simple." Pete Clare, wisdom of Pete Clare. And he believed that part of his mission of creating Turkey Trot was to create this place where a group, a handful of people, his clients could come every spring, every fall, and they could always have something on the calendar to look forward to. And I think that's true for me and it's true for a lot of people I work with.
That it's nice to have things on the calendar and have things to look forward to. And yes, so we do this thing called Business Builder Camp live, and we gather together a group of entrepreneurs, a group of business owners, and we meet either at these venues or here in my building at the farm. And so it's something to look forward to. It's a time to be around other people who really get it and really understand what's going on, the good and the bad of being a business owner.
And then I do work to create experiences that are fun. It's good to do fun things with other people. And then that creates memories to reminisce about. It creates group loyalty between people, and there's something about, I think we all in our logo is it's a campfire and there's brown wood. And the brown we've come to say has to do with being grounded.
And you talk about mowing, mowing is a connection to the ground and anything with the outdoors for most of us creates a feeling of reconnection. And so it's adventure. It's having something to look forward to. It's the outdoors. All those things are what we're working to create for business owners.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. I think that's been a key part of my life is having adventures and I love camping. And the big adventure I've been preparing for is elk camp. And for me, that's actually like a year round lifestyle. I might be gone for four or five days in the mountains, but it's part of my daily workout routine. There's the gear side of it. There's planning nutrition. There's I don't know, looking at maps and changing... There are rock slides and stuff now so all these roads are closed. So that keeps it fun and interesting for me. And then yeah, being outside and I found being away from my business for a week, I need to prepare to do that. And then often the business is stronger because I did that, because I had to get ready for it and then when I come back, I'm like, oh, here's what happens when I'm away for a week. Last summer I went away for three weeks and that ended up being too much time. It was more of just like, it was a lot actually for my family just to-
Wayne Herring:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jack Jostes:
... be gone-
Wayne Herring:
You need a vacation from vacation.
Jack Jostes:
Yeah. It was kind of a lot, so we broke it up.
Wayne Herring:
But it was a great experiment though, right?
Jack Jostes:
Oh yeah. It was excellent. It was excellent. What are some of your personal adventures? I think you have a damn race coming up of some kind.
Wayne Herring:
Yeah. And you asked about props, or you said, "hey, Wayne, bring some props." So one of the things I brought, you and I have done paper calendar. You and Kara and I have done paper calendar. So this is my paper calendar of work engagement, plus things that I'm doing with family. And so, yeah, I've got a half marathon on trail coming up and I've been training for that.
Not training, I'm not going to win it or anything, but it's fun to compete with me and finish it and feel good about the finish and keeps me on track. We were just in Montana. My son and daughter and I, the youngest daughter, we were just in Montana. We were in England earlier this year. So adventures, traveling and having those things to look forward to is a big part of my life.
Jack Jostes:
Well, Wayne, is there anything I didn't ask you that you want to share on this topic or with our audience?
Wayne Herring:
Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, so what I'll say is that it's normal we get low feelings. If you have severe depression, you ought to seek professional help, and there's no shame in it. But it's normal to go through these ups and downs. And I think what you've been prompting me to talk about, and what you've been doing in your own life is working to create habits and things that lessen the effects of depression. It's not really that we can battle it per se, it's sometimes moving with it.
Thomas, my son's doing Jujitsu and he's learning about moving with the other person, rolling with the moves. And I think it's more like that. But certainly habits that we have, people that we surround ourselves with can help us see the thoughts faster and help us get through it faster and stay effective and stay creative.
And whether it's with a group like mine or somebody else, it's really good for entrepreneurs to gather with people that it isn't all about puffing out their chest and how awesome their business is, but where it's fair and balanced, because it is good to be inspired by other people's success. As long as I'm not comparing myself to them, I have to run my own race. So I would encourage everybody somewhere, somehow find a group of business owners that you can build a relationship with, get to know them, see them periodically live and in the flesh, because it's going to help grow your business and inspire you to go even farther. It's going to help you solve problems earlier. And it's going to help you with this just feeling better, because why would you want to do this if you're not going to find joy in the business that you're creating.
Jack Jostes:
I love that. And I think, yeah, in-person events are so important. I love going to conferences and trade shows and I've gone to some of your events or I work with Jason Swank. He has the agency experience. And part of it was we rode Polaris four wheelers up into the mountains in Colorado. And we were at 13,000 feet, was just fun. So I think having some of those fun things.
I had a ski event for some of my mastermind clients. That was really fun to see them in person. So definitely getting out, getting in person with people is important. And then I like what you said about habits. I think that's something that has worked really well for me is creating a weekly system, a habit with exercise and meditation.
And one thing that I've gotten really into is barbecue. I got a smoker, I've been making beef jerky. And I'm curious about it. It's something to be curious about and read about and experiment with. So Wayne, thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing. For people who want to connect with you how can we do that?
Wayne Herring:
Well, I'll tell you what. Speaking of habits, I want to offer something to the business owners that you work with. So we got the new Business Builder Camp winter beanie hat that has come in. So if anybody would like this little care kit, they can just send an email to Wayne.herring, my first and last name, @businessbuildercamp.com. Mention Jack Jostes or Rambling Jackson. I'll send them one of these or a baseball cap. I'll ask which they prefer. Journaling is a big habit of mine. And I love 2nd Story Goods. It's a business in Haiti. And it's not a charity. It's a legit business. They make some of the best leather journals anywhere in the world. We'll throw one of them in there. And Steve Chandler is a coach of mine and somebody who his works have helped me with this success thinking and joy thinking. And so his book, Crazy Good is challenging us not to just have a good life, but to have a crazy, crazy, good life. And so I'll put some of those in the mail for anybody who would like that little packet.
Jack Jostes:
Love it. Yeah. I have the baseball cap and it is superior to other caps because it's black. I don't know about you all but when I wear my hat, I'm usually busy doing stuff and I sweat and it gets dirty, and the black cap just hides it. I've had it longer than other hats. And the journal I wrote in today, definitely a legit. I haven't read Steve's book, but I'll have to check that out. Maybe you know somebody who could send me a copy.
Wayne Herring:
Maybe, maybe.
Jack Jostes:
Maybe. Cool. Awesome. I'll put your email in the show notes for anybody who wants to connect with you there. And Wayne, thanks again for coming on the show.
Wayne Herring:
Always Jack? Go get 'em.
Jack Jostes:
Everyone needs something to look forward to. I totally agree with that. And I've shared in a recent episode, which I'll link to in the show notes, my weekly planning template, which I do on paper. And one of the things I learned from Wayne was, hey, printing out the whole year on paper with time and date.com. So that's one of my favorite things. One of the goals I wrote down that is for August that I'm doing which hurts but feels good, and it makes me stronger and helps build my capacity, was to ruck 85 pounds and I'm doing it, and now I'm ready.
And that took time and looking ahead into August early in the year and thinking, okay, I've been doing 30 pounds. How can I build up to 40 or 50 or 60, 70? And then eventually 85. That's one of the things that I like doing about planning on paper is writing down personal goals, business goals, trips with my family, things like that.
And that way I always do have something to look forward to. So I hope you've got something to look forward to. And hey, I look forward to hearing from you and hopefully seeing you at one of our events. So we're exhibiting at Elevate NALP's conference. We featured Britt Wood on our show. It's going to be an awesome event. We're going to have a booth number 1128. We're going to be raffling away a lot of cool things and collecting information for the landscapers sales survey, which we'll then release the results of that at our Summit.
You've got to join us at our Landscapers Summit on October 6th. And we've got a whole bunch of other events that we'll be doing throughout the fall, winter and into next year. So check out landscapers guide.com/events that are a great place to connect with other landscapers, learn, get inspired. And I love doing that. So hope to see you there. Thanks so much for checking out this episode. If you got value from it, share it with somebody. Who else do you know who should hear this? Just share it with them and it'll help spread the word. My name's Jack Jostes, and I look forward to talking to you next week on The Landscaper's Guide.