00:00 – Welcome + Meet the Experts Panel (Robert, Nick, Eddy)
00:00
Jack Jostes
My name is Jack Jostes, and welcome to Ask the Experts Commercial Snow and Landscape Sales panel. Today I'm going to be more or less moderating a conversation. I'm really excited to have our panelists here today. I've got three great guests today. I really appreciate you coming and taking time to share with the industry. We have Robert Clinkenbeard. He's the CEO of Wilson360. Robert built and sold a $20 million commercial landscape company and now coaches high performing business owners through Wilson360 using his Ironman mindset. He also hosts the Commercial Landscape podcast and is a trusted voice in the industry. I recently got to interview Robert on my podcast and I'm going to be interviewed on Robert's Commercial Landscaper podcast next. We have a couple clients of Ramblin Jackson. Nick Klotz is the CEO of EPM of Michigan.
01:12
Jack Jostes
Nick scaled his snow and landscape company while maintaining a 95% employee retention rate and works 20 to 25 hours a week. Is that true, Nick?
01:24
Nick Klotz
It fluctuates. The retention rates fluctuated. Some hours are up a bit this year, but we've scaled. So I've had to step in some places.
01:32
Jack Jostes
I, I thought so. I know it fluctuates, but he's also done it and I've interviewed him on the podcast. I met him at the SIMA symposium where he was a speaker on employee culture and retention and he runs a really great company. So I'm excited to hear from him. And Eddy Zakes is the CEO of Earth Development and has over 25 years of leadership experience and runs one of the Midwest top commercial snow and lawn care company. I recently went out to visit Eddy in Green Bay, Wisconsin and he truly has one of the, maybe even the best office I have ever visited. It is branded very tastefully with his core values. You can see behind him that they are reliable, responsible and partnering. And they aren't just slogans. These are like deep, meaningful operating principles at the company.
02:25
Jack Jostes
And I got to interview some of his people. So, Eddy, Robert and Nick, thanks again for coming. Is there anything else I should share about you guys that I didn't?
02:35
Robert Clinkenbeard
No, thanks. I'm happy to be here.
02:37
Eddy Zakes
Well.
02:37
Jack Jostes
Well, good. Well, you know, like I said, this is meant to be highly interactive. So we're gonna ask questions and I'll let one of you speak first if you have a response. First thing I, I wanted to get clear on how is commercial landscaping sales and marketing different from residential sales and marketing?
03:00 – Residential vs Commercial Sales: The Big Differences
03:00
Nick Klotz
We dip our toe in both. Well, we Dip our toe into residential. Still, there's some caveats to that. They have to be kind of tied to a existing account or be a legacy client from the beginning years of the company when we did service residential. I mean, for us residential, it's a little easier to build a rapport relationship faster than it is with a commercial client. So I guess for us the big difference is just the time spent in the relationship building probably a little more trust built more easily with a residential client, but it can also be done with a commercial client with some dedication and some effort.
03:52
Jack Jostes
Yeah. Why, why do you think it's more difficult from a commercial standpoint?
03:58
Nick Klotz
Budgets, honestly, controllers, CFOs, trying to maintain a budget or cut a budget. And often we're not viewed as a, a professional service, which I think some of us are trying to change the game on. I know Eddy is, I know I am. Probably many different reasons, not one I have a specific answer for. Maybe somebody else can chime in on that one.
04:24
Jack Jostes
Well, I, I think the fact that there is a budget is one of them. I think, I think, you know, a key difference in commercial and residential selling is in commercial the client typically has a budget and they've likely hired a snow and landscape professional in the past and they generally know about how much they want to spend. Whereas many residential customers have no idea how much it's going to cost. Especially when you get into construction services. If they haven't done a landscape installation project before, they likely have no idea how much it costs unless they're in the industry. That's my take on the budget part.
05:07
Robert Clinkenbeard
I have a slightly different viewpoint. We, were primarily with my landscape company we had in Arizona. We were, you know, 95, 97% commercial. So we really built our business based on relationships. You know, once we got in the door, we joined different associations, attended all the events. You know, our main focus was really bringing that relationship from a, you know, tier one being more of that transactional piece to, you know, towards a tier five, which is, you know, dinners, taking them to events. So, so, and once we got into that upper tier level 3, 4, 5, you know, we actually found that a lot of our clients would, you know, if they moved management companies, they would take us to that next management company with them. So yeah, it's probably a little bit more difficult. You're breaking through that barrier.
06:05
Robert Clinkenbeard
But I think once you're in the mix and you have a, almost like a seat at the table and then you can build some really, you know, amazing relationships.
06:15
Eddy Zakes
Yeah, I would completely agree. Earth development is only focused in the commercial space. You know, when we first started out 25 years ago, were, you know, in both residential and commercial. But today focus solely on the commercial space. I think the, the relationships can be very deep. I think that the buying process and buying cycles, there often is a different level of awareness. I think you also are paying for the sins potentially of the landscaping companies that they have worked with previously and they have a preconceived notion of what, you know, what landscaping services or snow removal services are. And so you know, how you separate yourself and get through those things when you're renovating a home or doing maintenance at a home, maybe the impression of what the services are meant to be can be somewhat different.
07:06
Eddy Zakes
But yeah, the commercial buyer is, potentially has a different level of savviness. Although there's huge variations in the level of education and savviness that they have.
07:16 – Building Long-Term Client Partnerships That Last
07:16
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah, thank you 100%. Yeah. And back to Nick's point. Yeah, I think regarding the budgets, you know, budgets can sometimes make or break you, but you know, if you build that relationship to that higher tier, you know, you can often influence what those budgets can look like. You know, if you actually present budget spreadsheets with them, work through that budget cycle, you know, talk to them about increases, do that face to face conversation with them. You know, it could definitely, you know, you could influence that and even to the point where, you know, you could influence, you know, future capital projects, you know, if you're looking to replace irrigation systems or do some major renovation, if you start to, you know, plant the seed at an early stage, then it could really help to build that longer term relationship.
08:09
Robert Clinkenbeard
If you're building out three to five year budgets ahead of you.
08:13
Eddy Zakes
Yeah. And with that then the buying cycle, the decision making timeline can be a very different level, duration, let's say.
08:22
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah.
08:24
Jack Jostes
So I think once you have that client, we can build these tiers we can work up, we can potentially influence their budget in the future.
08:36
Jack Jostes
The stage is set for the 2025 Landscape Leader of the Year. We've narrowed it down to three incredible finalists who are changing the game in the landscape industry. First up, Michael Fisher from Dutchy Stonework and Outdoor Living. Michael will share how his high converting website filters out price shoppers, attracts clients.
08:57
Jack Jostes
Who are ready to invest and.
09:00
Jack Jostes
Delivers a massive ROI by eliminating wasted sales time, resulting in more high end outdoor living projects. Next, Dominic Depadre from Tri Valley Landscaping. Dominic is presenting on company culture, how building a strong, unified team has fueled growth, improved service and created an environment where people love coming to work. And finally, Stuart Ward from Buckhead Landscape and Design. Stuart will reveal his proven sales process.
09:31
Jack Jostes
From the moment a lead comes in.
09:33
Jack Jostes
To estimating, presenting, closing and kicking off projects. This approach has helped fill every key.
09:41
Jack Jostes
Position on his team, take on more.
09:43
Jack Jostes
Complex projects and consistently attract high value leads through an optimized marketing strategy. Join us live on Thursday, October 9 for the Landscape Leader of the Year livestream. You'll hear all three presentations, get inspired with what's working right now, and most importantly, you'll cast your vote to decide the winner of the Landscape Leader of the Year contest. Register for free at landscapersguide.com/leader and be sure to attend live for your chance.
10:16
Jack Jostes
To vote and win.
10:17
Jack Jostes
Exclusive giveaways available only during the broadcast. My name is Jack justice and I. Look forward to seeing you at the. Landscape Leader of the Year live Stream on Thursday, October 9th.
10:27
Jack Jostes
I wanted to bring in a question from the audience. This question is from Jack Muller from Priority Landscape and Maintenance and hers is how do you break into large commercial facilities that won't let you pass reception? Right. So I think this is the million dollar question or multimillion dollar question is, you know, how do we get to the point where we could then have that relationship? So I wanted to ask the panel, many people will call this in sales, the gatekeeper. How do you get past the gatekeeper?
11:04
Nick Klotz
Persistence. I mean leverage any contact you have. Go to LinkedIn, find out who the operations facilities manager is, try and find some way, work your way in there when it comes to the gatekeeper, make friends with the gatekeeper and be persistent. Stop in once a month. You know, I've heard long ago somebody told me a story, ended up using it one time back when I did our sales, kept getting met with no, no by the gatekeeper. And on the last one of the last times I left, how do you take your coffee? Oh, two creams, one sugar. Okay, well I'll bring that next time I see it. And showed up with a coffee and a couple more of those, were able to get a name. We weren't able to secure the account, but just persistence, friendliness, not pushy. And network your backside off.
11:55
Eddy Zakes
I would say. And I would also add, ask for help. So I think saying calling other people in the company other than that gatekeeper and saying straight up, you know, I know Nick, you're not the right person, but I'm trying to find the right person. Would you be willing to do me a favor? And if you start off a phone call with, hey, you know, I. I could really use your help, could you do me a favor? People. People want to help people succeed in general. And so I think, you know, asking. Asking for the adjacent introduction or just, who, what number should I call? I know you're not the right person. What number should I call? Often will. Often will get you the first clue to start unraveling that.
12:35
Jack Jostes
I love it. What are you thinking, Robert?
12:38 – Breaking Through Gatekeepers in Commercial Sales
12:38
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah, I think, you know, definitely both of you bring up some great points there. I think a couple things to add. You know what, you know, I talked earlier about events. What are some of the events? You know, like boma, ifma, cei. What are some of the events that they hold? You know, trade shows, happy hours, you know, often the time that the gatekeepers are not there. So it allows you direct access to a lot of the decision makers, you know, assistant managers, full property managers. And then one of the other tricks, I heard from one of our clients that they took in almost a candy jar to the gatekeeper and put it on the front desk, and every month they went back and filled up that candy jar again. So it was a good way to build that rapport with that gatekeeper.
13:27
Robert Clinkenbeard
And eventually, you know, they often say that it takes six, seven, eight touches to actually get in the door or make that connection. And so, you know, but this company really successfully found a way to get in front of that gatekeeper every single time when they filled up that.
13:41
Jack Jostes
Candy jar, you know, so I love what you guys are saying here. And I'm curious, have you all read how to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie? Because it sounds like we're talking about that book. He even has a chapter about winning. What's it say? It's old. Something about attracting more bees with honey than vinegar. And I wanted to share a candy story myself. So every year I take my family to this bluegrass festival, and it happens to be in my town. And we typically walk to it and we walk about a mile, which normally isn't much, but the week actually days before, I was out with my sons and we rented one of those four person bicycle things. It's like a golf cart with, you know, and we didn't know that when you push it backwards, the pedals go backwards.
14:34
Jack Jostes
And it. It trapped my son's foot and very badly bruised it. We actually thought it was broken and. And we had paid hundreds of dollars to go to this bluegrass festival. So I went and got in line and went to the security guard, and I said, hey, could you help me? You know, here's the deal. I showed him a. A photo of my son's swollen foot, and he. He's like, look, we do have a special entrance where. Because normally there's this, like, literally quarter mile long line and this whole thing. And I would normally never ask, but he's like, yes, you can do it. And I said, you know, how can I. Is there. Is there something I can do for you? And he said, twizzlers. And I said, are you serious? He said, yes. So the.
15:22
Jack Jostes
The next day when we got in line, I brought him Twizzlers. So this is George, and George is the head of security, who then introduced me to the lady who runs the entrance where we could come in. So I think there's. There's a lot of truth to this. There's another weird guy who sends beef jerky to people. I don't know if you've met him, but I think that works for commercial work, too. So a lot of people say, oh, this doesn't work, but I'm with you guys. That persistence and creativity and sometimes a gift can get your foot in the door to then continue building that relationship. So I really enjoyed that.
16:10
Robert Clinkenbeard
Is a. Is it a gift, Jack, or is it a bribe?
16:14
Jack Jostes
Yeah, it's debatable. And. And it may be a bribe. And to that point, you know, I've had conversations with Eddy that some companies actually have legit specific rules against bribes. So I was curious before I send people out there, getting into the, you know, make sure you, by the way, asterisk. Consult your local attorney for the educational information you learned in today's webinar. Eddy, what. What have you found?
16:46
Eddy Zakes
Where.
16:46
Jack Jostes
How do you know the line when you're. When you're stepping into bribe territory and out of, like, a fun gift territory?
16:55
Eddy Zakes
I don't know that there is a perfectly defined line. I think it's, you know, different companies that we work with have very clearly written policies on, you know, their ethical guidelines for gift giving and things like this. And I think, you know, sometimes we just straight up ask and say, hey, I'd love to be able to, you know, take you to, you know, out for a round of golf, or I'd love to be able to do this or that. Would you be open to it? You know, and if they say I can't do it, you know, well, then is there a threshold of something that I could do that would be nice for you. And sometimes it's 50 bucks or 100 bucks. Different companies have different policies. You can also sort of do things as favors.
17:31
Eddy Zakes
I mean if you send flowers as an example and they're delivered to the office, it's very different than you hand delivering them if they got shipped to them. I'm not, we're not typically getting people flowers, but using that as an example where you could doordash somebody, something and it's going to be sitting down at reception. Are they going to really throw it away and therefore will they consider it a bribe? It's pretty different than, you know, hosting them in a Packers suite for a big packers game or something.
17:54
Jack Jostes
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. My, my next question was around lead generation and we had it. We had a good question from J. Vaneski from Peron Landscaping and Peron Facility Solutions. Sorry if I butchered anyone's name today. I haven't heard them say their name. But besides knocking down doors for residential customers and working on selling, the importance. And then second, how do you do this for commercial basically, what's the what are you finding is the top lead generation method for getting commercial snow and landscape clients?
18:39 – Outbound Tactics vs Referrals: What Really Works
18:39
Eddy Zakes
Number one for us is hands down is cold calling. But it's not just shotgunning stuff out. It's very strategic, intentional, direct on purpose calling and you know, finding a way in to build that relationship and then, you know, after that. Referrals and inbound leads are super helpful but you know, our sales team is out there making phone calls and setting up appointments, trying to get to talk to the right person by far. It's a, it's a, that's where they spend their time and find success. I mean, yes, a warmed up referral or warmed up inbound lead is maybe easier to close, but in terms of the volume of, you know, of leads, 100% is through the hard effort of our sales team.
19:29
Nick Klotz
I'd say we're probably the same. Cold calling, closely followed by referral, closely followed by, you know, seeing our branded trucks on site. With that said, I mean if we do our job correctly, they never see us. So hopefully they're asking the neighbor next door, hey, who does your snow? You're always done. But probably cold calling would be our highest.
19:53
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah, we didn't do any cold calling. All of ours was relationships. So referrals, I say going to events, you know, we would do a lot of almost like lunch and learns. So we already had Maybe a connection with a property manager and a management company. You would use that person to get in to do a lunch and learn. And now suddenly we're in front of 10 or 15 property managers who have, you know, five to 10 properties each. So it's a good way to get a foot in the door and then you just build in that relationship and just go deep with a management company. So we often, we find a lot of leads, referrals through that type of tactic. Occasionally we'd go through LinkedIn, you know, find out who's connected with who.
20:36
Robert Clinkenbeard
But yeah, we didn't really do a great deal of advertising or cold calling at all.
20:41
Jack Jostes
That's interesting. Yeah, I would. You know, I was curious, how do you approach business development and sales and related. Who handles account management and renewals at your company? So sales I'm going to define more as let's call it new sales, opening accounts and then there's account management and renewals. And I'm curious, are they. Is it the same person as hunting and farming or do you have a dedicated hunter and a separate farmer?
21:16
Nick Klotz
So we're in a Eddy's nod and Eddy structured how I want to be structured the next year. I believe we're currently in the process of a transition. It used to be sales account managed and we're not a massive company. We're only about 5 million in revenue. So we're looking at transitioning from, to having a dedicated business developer and a dedicated account manager. Account manager will handle renewals, upsell sales enhancements, hopefully a transition to greenside work or landscape work. So in the next six months we hope to be at that point fully. We're, we're already partially there.
21:56
Eddy Zakes
And I was nodding along because yes, what we have is we have dedicated salespeople that are in, you know, new business development and then we have account managers that once a, once the sale is completed, the relationship is handed off to a dedicated account manager who owns that relationship going forward and owns the retention, the renewal and then also the potential for expansion. We see that the expansionary relationship is based not so much only like a trustful relationship, but it's also based on your service quality. And at some point in time the salesperson has built up the trust in almost in anticipation of service to make the sale so that they. We've not actually done any services and so you're really trusting the sales rep after that point in time when we've started to do services.
22:42
Eddy Zakes
The decision to expand your relationship with us Is really predicated on how well are we doing in delivering the services according to the scope of work and the client's expectations.
22:53
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah, we had exactly the same model as Eddy. Clear distinction between business development, bringing in new work. A lot of them would bring in 800 to 2 million of new accounts every year. We typically had about five or six of them. Account managers would purely be focused on the client relationship renewals. Sometimes if they were dealing with a manager who had a portfolio, then we tap into that resource and then bring them to the business developers to close them. Our account managers were really focused on that relationship, improving that tier. And often they would be selling anywhere from 80 to 120% enhancement penetration rate. So that was their focus and obviously super high margins and that worked.
23:47 – Sales vs Account Management: Who Owns the Client?
23:47
Jack Jostes
Did you say 80 to 100% penetration rate?
23:50
Robert Clinkenbeard
Wow, 80 to 120.
23:52
Jack Jostes
I'm curious, Nick and Eddy, what are you targeting? I typically hear people targeting closer to 30%.
23:58
Nick Klotz
Yeah, 25 to 30. Is that's amazing.
24:02
Eddy Zakes
Yes, I would agree with Nick and Jack. You're, you know, we're probably 25 to 35%. I think it also depends a lot on, I mean, I don't, Robert, what your client mix was. And also, you know, the. If, if we work with a lot of logistics and distribution centers and things like that for snow removal or landscaping, the amount of out of scope work that's available there is different. It exists, absolutely exists. But we're not doing color rotations at the distribution center necessarily. Or if we are, they're pretty small. They're pretty small. A couple of little planters, let's say. But Robert, I mean, how much of that was based on the mix of clients that you had, do you think?
24:45
Robert Clinkenbeard
There was a few influencing factors. You know, Arizona, 12 months a year works. So we did slow down a little bit. December, January, real, you know, good mix between retail, class AB, office, industrial, HOAs. So a good mix of work there. Pretty even split. I think probably one of the biggest factors we found is, you know, using client budgets, building a sales machine where all of our, you know, most of our managers were all in the business of selling work. We used renderings, we had fact sheets. So all of those really help towards increasing that enhancement sales. So it's just a constant machine, just building in more proposals, reducing the budgets, you know, tapping into our clients and following up with them, but not in an aggressive way.
25:43
Jack Jostes
I think it's an important clarification for the audience in case they're not familiar with everyone here. So Eddy is in the Midwest, primarily Wisconsin and surrounding northern states. Nick is in Michigan, the area Robert's company was in, Arizona. So Robert, what percentage of your revenue was snow?
26:06
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yes, good question.
26:07
Jack Jostes
Okay, so his like he just kind of mentioned hey, we had year round landscape opportunity. So I haven't asked this question. You know, Nick and Eddy, when you're targeting that 25 to 30%, is that what. I guess. What is the penetration rate on the green side of the contract?
26:28
Nick Klotz
Green side for us we shoot for 25 to 30%.
26:31
Jack Jostes
Okay.
26:32
Eddy Zakes
Correct. Yeah, we don't. We, we consider out of scope work potentially to be additional saltings and things like this that would be by request because of special circumstances. But in the snow or snow hauling, we would also consider to be out of scope because it's a non contra. It's a contracted rate but a non maintenance, you know.
26:54
Jack Jostes
So, so even so you're not targeting a 25% penetration rate on snow.
27:01
Eddy Zakes
Correct? We would, we would correct it.
27:05
Nick Klotz
No, we don't really have a target penetration rate on snow now. We're probably going to try and develop one in the near future for more specific snow type enhancements, parking lot improvements, curbing, asphalt patching.
27:19
Jack Jostes
Okay.
27:20
Nick Klotz
Ceiling things that we can try and upsell on the snow. Only clients.
27:23
Jack Jostes
Nice sweeping would be another one to add.
27:25
Eddy Zakes
Nick.
27:25
Nick Klotz
Sweeping.
27:26
Jack Jostes
Yeah, I like it. You know, so we've got a few guests who, you know, they may not be at the $10 million mark or even the $5 million mark. So I like that you all said no. We have a dedicated salesperson doing new sales and we have account people doing renewals and relationships. I think it makes sense when your business gets to that point to have that role distinction. And that's how I operate my own company. And I think it does serve the customer and getting to that point is kind of difficult. So I had some question questions. Benjamin Toenis from Verde Landscape in Texas, he just wrote growing from 3 to 5 million. And Ryan Toy from Toys Landscape asked, you know, what does a business development salesperson's day look like in commercial sales?
28:19
Jack Jostes
I'm trying to build out a new crew and route for maintenance. Where do you start? So I want you to kind of like think back to when you were in that 3 to 5 million range or maybe you were in 2 million. And now you're thinking of. Well, I think my vision is to become a commercial company or 50% commercial or I'm trying to get into commercial. What do you have for folks kind of in that phase of growth pertaining to sales and how to do it and what do the people look like.
28:54
Nick Klotz
And one of the first things that comes to mind is know your capacities. I mean, if you're, you know, a $2 million company and you're out going after massive distribution centers, don't outsell your own service. I mean, I've been guilty of it and it's gotten us in a pickle before. You know, make sure that you can bankroll the sites you're trying to take on, bankroll the salt, bankroll the labor. Because you start to get into those large facilities, a lot of the time they're 120, 180 day pay. Make sure you're going to be able to maintain that. Float a little bit off topic and I think your question, but kind of a point I wanted to make.
29:37
Jack Jostes
Thank you.
29:38 – Growing from $3M to $5M and Beyond
29:38
Robert Clinkenbeard
I think to Nick's point, really identifying who that core customer is. Yeah, that brings in maximum revenue, maximum profitability. You know, even in that commercial space, you know, there's four or five different segments of that. So looking at, you know, if you're already doing some of that work, looking at whatever system you're using, but looking at which jobs are bringing me in the most profit, maybe less of a headache. You know, some people don't touch hoas because of all the different layers you have to go through in decision making. But other people just dive really deeply on that hoa. So really identify who that core customer is and then figure out what's the best way to penetrate that segment and then figure out what's the best tactics to do that.
30:26
Jack Jostes
I, I agree with you. So in my book Tree of Good Fortune and at Ramblin Jackson, we call that Hell Yes Customer. Who is your Hell yes customer? And in our book club just this week, we read the book Raving Fans. And I don't know if you guys have read this book. It is excellent and it's like a tiny book. It's like you can read it in an afternoon almost. And, and one of the overlaps was the first thing was there were like three key messages from this book about creating raving fans. And I think this is relevant to what Robert was saying about having these tiered relationships and even getting the relationship to a level where you're influencing the budget. And it does come down to who is buying and then how well do you serve them.
31:13
Jack Jostes
And the first part is deciding what you want. That was one of the messages from this, my opinion and my experience rather, in figuring out my hell yes customer, which is you guys and the people here, multimillion dollar snow and landscape companies was years of serving other different types of customers, and some of them happen to be multimillion dollar landscape companies. And I noticed that, wow, I'm getting great results for them and I like them and they pay me. I guess what I'm getting at is how do you. How do you. How did you guys figure out who your hell yes customer is? Was it similar to my experience of it's not quite trial and error, but it's, you know, serving customers and looking back at what worked, what didn't work. How did you guys figure it out?
32:06
Nick Klotz
We went through a lot of hell no customers to figure out which ones the hell yes ones were.
32:10
Jack Jostes
I see. I think that's the only way to do it. And the thing is like, I have some. I have. I have a client, and he spoke at the Simon Symposium. He loves doing residential snow removal. He has figured it out. It's very profitable. He goes skiing most of the winter. He's got it so dialed in that he is not out personally plowing snow at Mrs. Jones driveway. So he. He has figured. And for most people I talk to, that is a hell no customer. They do not want to sell to or talk to Mrs. Jones about her driveway. What about you, Eddy? What do you think about?
32:48
Eddy Zakes
I mean, I would say, you know, when you have an abundance of opportunity and you then have the privilege to be choosy, I think when you're just starting out, you know, most of us, when we start a small business, we're just trying to figure out how to keep the lights on and feed our families. And, you know, when you first started, Jack, I'm sure you had clients that you actually would love to have been able to fire, but you couldn't justify firing them because you needed the revenue from them. And I think absolutely, you know, part of the challenges is you might know that this customer isn't the one that you really want to work with. But you have to. You have to honor the contract. You have to honor the relationship.
33:24 – Finding and Keeping Your “Hell Yes” Customers
33:24
Eddy Zakes
You do things right as well by your customers to build the reputation and build the experience to stay in the game long enough to be able to do that as well. I think you could.
33:34
Jack Jostes
Go ahead.
33:35
Eddy Zakes
Go ahead, Jack.
33:36
Jack Jostes
I know. I just wanted to reiterate what you just said, because sometimes people hear me say that you should have a hell yes customer, and there are hell no customers, and they think that it Means that you're not going to take good care of the people that you realize are a hell no customer. You still need to honor them like you said, and serve them and maybe even earn a Google review and a referral from them.
33:59
Eddy Zakes
Correct, Right.
34:01
Jack Jostes
And at the same time realize they're not a fit long term. I think you can do both.
34:06
Eddy Zakes
I think you can also go through, you know, you can definitely learn this through experience and you know, Nick talking about the hell no customers and like, yeah, I don't want to work with those ones anymore and everything else. I think we also can go through exercises where we think about, you know, that where are we stand the chance to be most successful? Where do we stand the chance to work with people who make decisions that match what our objectives are? How do we want to equip ourselves as a company? What is the opportunity for CapEx expansion in our business? You know, what equipment do I have today? Because it's a journey as well. And who might be the right customer for you five years from now might not be the customer that you can serve today.
34:51
Eddy Zakes
And we see that a lot in some of the service partners that we work with that they aspire to something and they're trying to figure out how to get there. And then can we help them on that journey as well and sort of coach them through the decisions that they need to make? I don't think it's a, I think the hell yes or the juicy red customer. It would be awesome if every single one of your customers were those.
35:11
Eddy Zakes
And you'll always have, you know, sort of preferred clients that you just love working with and probably will have a couple of dogs and people that started off being customers that you're really happy and proud to work with, can have a transition of leadership or can have, you know, transitions in their business economics that turn them into, you know, not a great fit anymore. So I think it's a, it's a constantly evolving field in front of you that you need to constantly be picking at. Excellent.
35:43
Jack Jostes
We, we do have a good question from somebody who's here. I'm going to invite you, Jed, if you're willing to turn on your camera and ask your question. It was about how many accounts are you comfortable having an account manager have in their portfolio? Hey, Jed, how you doing? Good.
36:01
Audience Member #1
How are you guys?
36:02
Jack Jostes
Good, good. If you could share just a, a little bit about yourself. Where are you and what do you guys do and then ask your question.
36:09
Audience Member #1
Okay, so it sounds like we're a little smaller than our panel guests here. We're about a three million dollar company. We do maintenance, snow removal and we've added a landscape division here in the last 18 months that is really taking off. I have two account manager slash sales people. So this is very good to hear that it's our goal should be to separate them in the future. But how many accounts are you guys comfortable with your account managers having in their portfolio before it just gets too big and you need to add another account manager?
36:56
Nick Klotz
I think it's more of a revenue than accounts honestly. Because your larger revenue clients are going to require more touch points. I think kind of the industry benchmarks anywhere between like 801.5.
37:13
Jack Jostes
Yeah, that's is that for a dedicated account manager?
37:16
Nick Klotz
A dedicated AM is what I've heard been told read.
37:20
Jack Jostes
And then when you're at that level that you have that what might be the quota for a new salesperson? How much new revenue would their, you know, sales counterpart on the team be opening in a year?
37:34
Nick Klotz
Should a new BD be bringing on. You're saying that's, I mean really shoot for probably anything north of 750 to 8 and push them as hard as they can go. I, I, we're kind of new to that game. So.
37:50
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah, we would, I think 800 to 1.5 is a good number, Nick. You know again that could be a mix of you know, 10 HOAs or it could be a mix of 100 accounts. You really got to look at that mix of portfolio often. We would if it was getting towards the peak of their book. You know, we would actually bring in maybe like an assistant account manager or maybe somebody might start off as an estimator and then move into like assistant EM type role. But you got to look at the mix, the distance. You know, I remember even talking to an account manager who looked after the Disney down in Florida. You know that was a 1.5 million-1 contract.
38:37
Robert Clinkenbeard
But so really just looking at your portfolio and seeing what makes sense and there's also, you know, the experience level of that am, you know, the new or the, you know, somebody that's coming in with 5, 10 years experience.
38:55
Jack Jostes
And.
38:55
Eddy Zakes
I would say we have our account managers doing substantially more than 800 to 1.5 million. But I think it really depends on what the client mix is and you know, how, you know how many locations for a single customer you have, the geographic spread, etc. So ours is probably more like 2 to 3 million per account Manager, give or take. And that would again, depends on, it depends on a whole bunch of different factors. So in some cases, you know, a single account manager, we have an account manager who's responsible for a $3.5 million account with 55 locations in maybe five states, give or take. Again, like those numbers might not be perfectly right, but, you know, and that's just one of the accounts that account manager has.
39:54
Eddy Zakes
But how demanding is that client and you know, how many individual unique points of contact do they have to have in order to manage that relationship, etc. So I think there's, it's a, it really depends on how your company is structured, the geographic diversity of the sites that you manage, etc.
40:12
Jack Jostes
I agree with that and I think the title account manager is a very dangerous one. And what I mean by that is I don't know any company who has the same list of responsibilities for that title account manager in the landscape industry, in the digital marketing industry. And I, I think answering the question, like Eddy said, it depends on what are they doing and what other people are working with them and how much are they doing. At Ramblin Jackson we have a role called account coordinator, which is more of the task execution focus of our client work, whereas some companies don't have a account coordinator and their account manager is actually doing tasks. So I think it's kind of difficult to answer.
41:06
Jack Jostes
And then even looking at industry trends, there's a lot of nuance that isn't shared when you look at the reports and things on that. I'm really enjoying our conversation and I wanted to invite a special guest, Ramblin Jackson's Director of Client Strategy, Robert Felton, with a brief announcement.
41:28
Robert Felton
Hey everybody. It's nice to see you all. I wanted to just thank everybody for coming. Ramblin Jackson's really excited to sponsor this event. Ramblin Jackson does know the nuances and the differences between marketing for a residential and a commercial landscaping company. We have plenty of full service companies and more. One other thing I always like to point out, here at Ramblin Jackson, we really go beyond the lead generation. I mean, we truly believe that sales and marketing are connected. There's no Chinese wall between them. So if you're interested in learning a little bit more about what Ramblin Jackson does, how it helps commercial landscapers, please go to landscapersguide.com/brainstorm Again, that's landscapersguide.com/brainstorm. You're going to talk to the wonderful Alyssa. She'll talk to you. Learn a Little bit more about your business, tell you a little bit more about Ramblin Jackson.
42:13
Robert Felton
It is a free call and it's a way to just learn a little bit more and see if we can help you.
42:17 – The #1 Question to Qualify Prospects
42:17
Jack Jostes
So thank you, Robert, and thank you, Alyssa. We've got people from all different shapes, sizes, scales of industries. And this is what I love about doing these events, is connecting all of you. This one is actually from Joseph Barnes at Yellowstone Landscape and he asks what's your top question to ask to determine if the client is a good fit for you. So in your selling, have you found a question that unlocks the sale that you always ask and you would manage your people to ask?
42:54
Robert Clinkenbeard
I always like to ask how much are they going to invest in the property? And what I'm trying to glean from that is, you know, are they going to invest, you know, enhancement work or improvements for the next 12, 24, 36 months? You know, if somebody's not spending any money and I'm already going at a tight maintenance contract, then possibly not a good fit. So I'm always looking at how they going to invest in their landscaping.
43:24
Jack Jostes
And remind me, so it's a budget question and how, let's pretend that I was a client, like literally with the intonation and words that you would use, how would you actually ask it? If were having a conversation, Robert.
43:39
Robert Clinkenbeard
I think you put me on the spot here. I mean, I suppose I would ask them, you know, how much have they spent in improvements or enhancements over the last 12 months? And then it would then lead into what's your plan for the next 12, 24 months? So and even bring in a question, you know, what's the long term plans for the property? Are you going to flip it and in 12 months, is it a long term hold? So just some of that real estate, that asset management type question just to see, you know, where it is placed in their portfolio.
44:18
Jack Jostes
I, I like that. And would you recommend. And so you asked it more of like, hey, tell me how much have you invested in the past 12 months? I, I like that question. I like because people can answer that I think that's, that doesn't put me on guard as much as hey, what's your budget? I think, I think that, I guess what I'm getting at is the how the words you use and how you ask. And I know that I put you on the spot and that in a more relational environment you might ask a little differently. But I was just kind of Curious of your approach. So I like that.
44:56
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah, it was more conversational. I like to try and right from the get go, when I first met a new prospect, it was more try and get them to let the guard down, talk about sports, talk about family. Just getting to be more of that relaxed environment and then just slipping those questions about that long term relationship, maybe what happened to previous contractors. So just those non threatening questions, but very conversational.
45:26
Eddy Zakes
I'm always super interested in trying to figure out, you know, why. Why are you talking to me along that same line of like, what happened to the person who was here last year? And you know, is it, hey, yeah, I, this is up for renewal. My boss said I need to get three quotes. The person who's been here has been here for 17 years. We obviously really like them. Okay, well, you know, what would it take to displace them, et cetera. But I think trying to understand that what Robert's saying there about, you know, and I think you. I don't know that it's one single question, but it's a, it's the, it's answer that I think is pretty important to us is, you know, what is it? Why am I in this conversation with you?
46:02
Eddy Zakes
Obviously you're interested in talking to me for some reason, but help me understand a little bit more there. But it comes. It's not the first question you ask. It's. You're talking about a whole bunch of other stuff and then you're sliding in the questions that Robert was asking.
46:13
Nick Klotz
Yeah, yeah. Kind of similar. Slide in and slide in the pointed questions. Somewhere down the line. One that I always asked was, you know, if your current contractor could do one better, what would it be? And that even like in Eddy's situation where, you know, they've had the contractor for 17 years, it at least could get the wheel spinning. Hopefully in your direction.
46:34
Eddy Zakes
Of course. Yeah, I mean they, you know what could be even better? We, we asked that question as well, Nick, and often you get really good ideas. Yeah.
46:42
Nick Klotz
Even, even in the, the hard. You know, we're not looking to switch, but we have to get three bids. You get them talking and thinking about the previous year. Oh, you know, they didn't do this. They didn't do this. They could have done this better. And you know what? Why don't you go ahead and give me that bid.
46:56
Jack Jostes
I like it. I like it. And Eddy's question reminds me of a Sandler question, which was something to the effect of. So why are we talking now?
47:06
Robert Clinkenbeard
Mm.
47:08
Jack Jostes
Why are we talking now? I would ask in especially if I learned they were getting three other bids, is, hey, let's pretend that you got three bids or five bids. What's most important to you about who you end up partnering with? And I found that helps uncover like, well, is it budget? Well, it has to be in our budget or usually it's not. Usually they actually share. Well, what's most important is communication. Oh, well, tell me more. You know, what was communication like with your previous landscape company? How often does it happen? I'm often, always curious, how did you try and tell them about this? Because what I don't want is somebody who doesn't communicate with me. And if they're like, well, I never told them because that puts me a little on the. Yeah, I don't know.
48:01 – Is Commercial Work a Race to the Bottom?
48:01
Jack Jostes
I, I don't know if I can help you. That's, that's for me. We had some good questions and Eddy is here and it's related to this, but I have to ask it because I'll tell you that I talk with hundreds of professionals a year in the industry, and many of them will say, well, commercial is just a rat race to the bottom. And I'm always like, oh, really? Is it? And I'm just curious, what do you think? Is it always a rat race to the bottom? Does commercial always have to be a rat race to the bottom? No, Eddy didn't use the word rat. I brought in the word rat for the race, by the way.
48:44
Eddy Zakes
It's a great question, Eddy, and it's something that, you know, there's always going to be somebody. We position ourselves specifically in conversations right off the bat saying, hey, if this, if price is the number one most important thing to you, Earth Development has never been set up to be the cheapest option out there. There might be some random cases where we might end up being the cheapest, but that's not our express purpose. Our express purpose is to, you know, meet your organization's needs, help you manage your risks, keep up your brand expectations and the way that your property looks and how you keep people safe and your property attractive. And so I think there is always price pressure, but knowing, you know, what your, how your company is sort of calibrated and what's most important to you.
49:27
Eddy Zakes
We face pressure, but we know it's not a race to the bottom. It doesn't, it doesn't need to be a race to the bottom. And there are many, many clients who will pass on, you know, the, the low cost Provider with glee to move to somebody who is going to charge them more. But what that's going to better align with their expectations.
49:51
Nick Klotz
It definitely can be a case with many clients, especially some of the portfolio work or different managers in place. But like you said, it doesn't have to be. You have to have the ability to sell your service and in what you bring to the table, not just the number at the bottom of the bed.
50:09
Eddy Zakes
You likely need to be competitive though. I mean if you're not competitively priced, you're going to struggle in commercial landscaping. But being able to describe the value that you create and why your pricing is what it is, I think is important.
50:22
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah, it comes back, I think to what you mentioned earlier about relationships and that tier relationship. So if you're in that tier one and two of a client relationship, then there's a higher likelihood you're going to get bumped through price. You know, if you're up in that 3, 4, 5 then you know it's going to take some, you know, major screw ups for you to be bumped out of place. But you know, you can't let your guard down. You've got to keep those relationships high. You've got to deliver on quality. What can you do to really step up that relationship? That was something were always striving our account managers to do is how can we take a step up, you know, what was the extra, you know, is it communication? Is it renderings? What else can we do to stay ahead of the competition?
51:08
Robert Clinkenbeard
So that was, I was, we almost thrived in that competition because it made us upper game.
51:14
Jack Jostes
I like that. I, I agree with that perspective on competition because if you don't have any competition then there's probably not a lot of money to be made. That's been my experience in picking a hell yes customer. I once pursued a different industry and there was no competition because there was no money to be made. So I, I think that can be a telling sign that you're on track when you have competition. I wanted to ask from Stephanie Leveling from Boss by Integra how are you managing the increased costs of equipment, salt materials and the perceived decrease in actual snow events? How is a smaller company supposed to manage that without losing their shirt?
52:02
Nick Klotz
Smaller? Try and balance out a little heavier and seasonal guaranteed money contracts to at least cover your bottom line.
52:14
Eddy Zakes
Yeah, I think that there's some, you know, first of all it's a, it should be a conversation with the client and some education of the Client as well, you know, two major in on the snow side, which, you know, mentioning salt and materials specifically would maybe make me think more of the winter side. But the, you know, you have fixed contracts and your variable contracts and you have some sort of hybrid in the middle of the two and you know, trying to figure out, like Nick said, how to get some money guaranteed in that process I think is important. We see different appetites for contract formats in different regions as well.
52:50 – Managing Salt Costs, Snow Events, and Profit Margins
52:50
Eddy Zakes
And so, you know, it might be an opportunity for you to showcase your company as different because you're able to talk about, you know, a new contract format that hasn't been done in your community yet. And so I think there's plenty of examples of companies that are using, you know, win contracts that are using, you know, floors and ceilings of snow amounts, standard deviations. You can get all kinds of weather data. You can have readiness fees or staging fees where the first, you know, X dollars of the contract is paid up front. But it goes against a snow total for the year or against, you know, other options like that. But those are all tools there to help push that.
53:30
Eddy Zakes
And then I think also making sure that if you're signing multi year contracts, you have an option ideally to be able to do annual price increases as well. And that way you're, you know, to the question of, you know, tariffs or inflation or whatever that you have some coverage there as well.
53:46
Nick Klotz
And with salt specifically we have a commodities clause built into our contract that if salt raises by a certain portion we can raise the price of salt on the client. They'll get noticed, but we have the ability to do that.
53:58
Jack Jostes
I like that. Protection. Well great. Eddy Zakes, Nick Klotz, Robert Clinkenbeard, thanks for coming today. I have one final rapid fire question to close us out on time for the audience today and that is what in sales management, what KPIs do you obsess over managing your sales team? What is the number or numbers that you're like I need these numbers and they need to be on track or.
54:29
Eddy Zakes
Else 3 we do number of calls, number of proposal presentations and then the dollars and Number of closed 1. Number of phone calls you make is critical because that leads to the proposal opportunities. But if you don't, you can call all kinds of people. But if you're not proposing new business and the number of proposed meetings that are proposal presentations or proposal meetings that you have, it's all about the proposals and then your proposal effectiveness is leading to closed one. And yeah, those are the three things that we're paying really close attention to.
55:02
Nick Klotz
That'S we're tracking the exact same three.
55:07
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yeah. For me, again, new contacts are making proposal values, so we're almost trying to look ahead. And then the third piece is the really diving into the sales activity sheets on a weekly basis. Who are they having lunch with, what events they're attending, what, you know, calls they made. So really diving deep there.
55:31 – Key Sales KPIs Every Leader Should Track
55:31
Jack Jostes
So, so all of you mentioned a behavioral aspect. So you're measuring both the result of sales, but you're really managing what Robert and Eddy are talking about. The behavior of calls, the behavior of meetings. And that would be my parting comment on sales management is to manage the behaviors because the behaviors produce the results. Would you agree?
55:55
Robert Clinkenbeard
Yep, 100%.
55:57
Eddy Zakes
Yeah. We, we talk about activity, input, performance, output and coachability for every single employee. Whether you're in sales, account management, field operations. If you're the cfo, it's activity, input, performance, output and coachability.
56:10 – Closing Thoughts + Landscape Leader of the Year
56:10
Jack Jostes
All right, everyone. Well, thanks for coming to the Landscapers Guide sales panel on commercial sales and marketing. Again, thanks to our guests Eddy Zakes, Nick Klotz and Robert Clinkenbeard. We invite you to come to a similar event on October 9th where three of my top clients will be competing in the Landscape Leader of the Year Contest. So they will be presenting 15 minute leadership presentations and you, the audience, will get to vote on who the winner is. And we have over $1,000 of prizes that we're going to be giving away. So check that out@landscapersguide.com my name is Jack justice from Ramblin Jackson. Thanks again for coming today and big round of applause for our panelists today. Thank you, guys.
56:57
Robert Felton
Thanks, Robert.
56:58
Eddy Zakes
Thanks, Nick.
57:00
Jack Jostes
Like today's video and subscribe to our YouTube channel to get upcoming videos to help you grow your snow and landscape company. My name is Jack justice and check out my free resources in the show notes and click the next video.
57:15
Jack Jostes
To grow your business.
Show Notes:
???? Watch the full episode + read the transcript: https://landscapersguide.com/podcast/
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???? Connect with our panelists:
- Robert Clinkenbeard – Wilson360: https://wilson-360.com/
- Nick Klotz – EPM of Michigan: https://epmofmichigan.com/
- Eddy Zakes – Earth Development: https://earthdevelopmentinc.com/
???? Vote + see the Landscape Leader of the Year:
https://landscapersguide.com/leader