Joe Raboine [00:00:00]:
The average size yard in the US in the last 40 years has dropped by about half. But a lot of people are moving into these smaller lots in most major cities, and they're thinking they can't have outdoor living. Like, I don't have enough space. If you had a 15x30 foot room in your house, that would be a big room, right? But that's the area between a garage and the back of the house. You can still do a lot if you think more vertically. Don't use your own lens as the filter for what you would do or not do. They might buy a Maserati, right. You might buy a Ford, right?
Joe Raboine [00:00:33]:
That just, you're looking for a different perspective. In the context of that quote and that $50,000 job. What are you talking, like 1%? Half a percent? It's so small. If that aesthetic and that look is right for that homeowner, then offer it to them.
00:48 – Meet Joe Raboine from Oldcastle at Belgard University
Jack Jostes [00:00:48]:
Hey, everyone. Right now I'm at Belgard University in Southern Pines, North Carolina, and I'm excited to interview Joe Raboine, who's the vice president of design at Oldcastle. And today we're going to talk about designing for small spaces.
Joe Raboine [00:01:04]:
Awesome. Yeah. Thank you, Jack. So one of the cool things that I get to do with my job is look at kind of these macro trends of what's happening in outdoor living. And when we look at the average size yard in the U.S. in the last 40 years has dropped by about half. In fact, 40 years ago is about a half acre. Now we're just over a quarter acre, roughly. But that's an average.
Joe Raboine [00:01:26]:
But if you look at new home construction, the average lot size, about 7,000 square feet, roughly, about at least 40% of them are, and 20% of those are even smaller. So when we think about our product development, our sales and marketing, all of the above and kind of the solutions approach, historically we would think of outdoor living being primarily suburban or like estate size. And still that's our bread and butter. But a lot of people are moving into these smaller lots in most major cities, and they're thinking they can't have outdoor living. Like, I don't have enough space. In reality, they usually. They do, but you have to look at it a little bit differently. It might be maybe they only have 15ft behind the house and there's a wall or there's a garage and it's 30ft long, or, you know, you may look at a side yard or maybe look at the front yard.
Joe Raboine [00:02:15]:
And so just kind of thinking different. Like it's not just the backyard. There are different ways to think about outdoor living spaces. And then there's also a huge segment of the population that's now living in apartments and in condos. And how do we with developers and architects to design outdoor spaces for them as well. Right? Whether it's common space or something adjacent to their apartment.
02:37 – Outdoor Living Now Beats Kitchen Remodels
Joe Raboine [00:02:37]:
So it's just interesting because interest in outdoor living is at an all time high. It's the number one requested feature that people want now, even surpassing kitchens and kitchen remodels.
Jack Jostes [00:02:46]:
Really? As far as enhancements to their existing home?
Joe Raboine [00:02:51]:
Yeah. If you look at it was kitchens for a long time. Before kitchens, I think it was with master bedroom suites. And you go back 30 years, it was rec rooms. But now people are on their wish list, are looking at, I want an outdoor living space. Well, if you kind of, if you look at that in the context of lots being smaller, these people still are building pretty significantly sized homes and they have oftentimes moved from a larger lot to, you know, like, let's closer to the center of the city. And they're like, yeah, I just can't get one. And so for us, you know, it's partly education where we're talking to contractors and designers and suggesting that they look at it differently.
Joe Raboine [00:03:27]:
Right. Where you know, if you imagine if you had a 15x30 foot room in your house, that would be a big room.
Jack Jostes [00:03:33]:
Right.
Joe Raboine [00:03:34]:
And that. But that's the area between a garage and the back of the house. Like you, you can still do a lot if you think more vertically, you know, what can you do for screening and adding greenery and things like trellises. How can you create like hybrid spaces where might be built in benches? You know, maybe you have a fire pit, but during the day it acts as a coffee table and you build a cover for it. Maybe, you know, if you're building a retaining wall, maybe build benches into the wall instead of just going four feet up. So it's just kind of reassessing what you can do because oftentimes those spaces end up being just as expensive as a larger space because you're putting a lot in there. But you're able a lot of times as well to add more features like lighting, sound systems, structures, things like that. So it's just stepping back for a minute and going whoops.
04:22 – Why Using the Right Project Photos Matters
Joe Raboine [00:04:22]:
When we talk about outdoor living and we're kind of guilty of it in our own marketing where we show these big beautiful projects, which are really the things that excite people, but that's not reality for a lot of the people that we're trying to market to and that we're actually working for.
Jack Jostes [00:04:35]:
Well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because often my team and I build websites for landscape companies and we help them get found by what we call their Hell Yes Customer. And sometimes their Hell Yes Customer and their Hell Yes Project is not the quarter million install. It might be a 50 or a $70,000 thing, but when we look at their homepage, they often show the photo of the biggest project that they've ever done. And I think that's good in some ways because it shows people what you're capable of, but it can also in some ways deter somebody who needs a small space. So I think having imagery the photos of a variety of projects on your homepage is important and especially showing some of these small spaces.
Joe Raboine [00:05:21]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, if you look at, we would say the. The kind of bread and butter of the industry is, are those projects that are like, let's say 30 to 60, and a lot of contractors like them because you can kind of get in and get out quickly. And they don't. They don't get bogged down by months of, you know, permitting.
Joe Raboine [00:05:38]:
Permitting and, you know, almost apathy sometimes by the crews. Where it's like, oh, I gotta be here three months. And they don't. The level of urgency isn't there. But. But you're right. When you do look at.
Joe Raboine [00:05:47]:
And again, even with some of the marketing that we've done in the past, you look at, if homeowners don't know any better, they're going to assume that those are the only types of projects. Or if they see a large mansion or estate, like, whoa, that's. I can't afford pavers. Clearly that's way out of my league. But. But that's really the vast majority of people. It's like they. In, you know, 40 to 50, you can still get a beautiful outdoor space with most of the features that people want.
Joe Raboine [00:06:13]:
But I think you're right. Just getting, showing more examples of that, like inspiring them to be able to think that, hey, I can get a space. Right. It's attainable. Right.
06:24 – Smart Design Strategies for Small Spaces
Jack Jostes [00:06:24]:
So tell me a little bit. What do you do with Belgard as a designer and share some of your background prior to working?
Joe Raboine [00:06:31]:
Yeah. So I was a contractor for 16 years. We did outdoor living spaces starting in the early 90s to about 2007. I actually started a company that manufactures modular outdoor fireplaces and kitchens. My company is acquired by Oldcastle, who I work for now. But my passion is design and so I still look at all those things, the product development, the sales and marketing, kind of through the lens of a contractor, even though I've been here 12 years. So we have a whole suite of services that we can offer our contractors and designers. So we can give, we can provide all the assets.
Joe Raboine [00:07:06]:
Like if you're doing your own design work, you know, 3D models, seamless textures that can be imported into softwares. We also have templated designs. We have a program called Belgard Rooms which has modular templated designs for like outdoor kitchen spaces, dining, living room and whatnot. And then we also will do full conversions for our partners. And we have different levels. Right. Where in some cases it's completely free, some cases we may charge a little for it, but it really just depends where you need help. Right.
Jack Jostes [00:07:37]:
So who uses those design services? Are these design build firms that have an in house designer or are they more so build and installation companies that don't have a designer?
Joe Raboine [00:07:45]:
I would say both. Some of the ones that do have their own design build, they might just do 2D work and they don't convert them. So we'll convert them into renders and animations if they want. We do. I would say the majority of the design work we do are for contractors who don't have an in house designer or that do it themselves. Right. Which is the case with a lot of them. And they just don't have time for.
Jack Jostes [00:08:08]:
Do you only design the part of the project that's going to be Belgard or would you design an entire landscape? Let's say we were doing a backyard renovation and there's a patio, there's a retaining wall, there's a outdoor kitchen and there's Belgard material being used. But then there's a pond and water feature.
Joe Raboine [00:08:26]:
No, we'll do it all. I mean we render the house, we'll put in fencing, we put in all those things, natural stone, whatever, whatever they need to sell that project. We're not going to get every piece of that. But we also know that if they don't sell that project, we may not get any purchase. So we're invested in making sure that they're as successful as possible.
08:45 – What It Takes to Become a Belgard Master Craftsman
Jack Jostes [00:08:45]:
Well, that's cool. Tell me about. So there are different tiers of working with Belgard? What's maybe an overview of them and how do people get started?
Joe Raboine [00:08:53]:
Yeah, so we have what we call our Belgard Authorized Contractor Program. There's several tiers within that there's a membership status where you can just sign on and you get credits for just purchases like, you know, lots of companies do. Then there's the next level would be the authorized contractor where they'll actually receive leads. There is a vetting process. We go out and look at projects. There needs to be a certain number of projects installed.
Jack Jostes [00:09:14]:
To be an Authorized Contractor.
Joe Raboine [00:09:16]:
To be an Authorized Contractor. And when you get that status, you actually, you'll show up on our website. You'll receive leads from direct leads from the website. And then there's kind of an elite status called our Master Craftsman. And there's maybe 10% of those. Individuals of those companies become Master Craftsmen. And those are really the best of the best. Typically those companies do kind of everything, you know, in the outdoor space, whereas a lot of the other ones might just do hardscape or just do, you know, lighting or whatnot.
Jack Jostes [00:09:44]:
So they’d be like a full service landscape company?
Joe Raboine [00:09:46]:
Yeah. Typically they are, yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:09:48]:
Okay.
Joe Raboine [00:09:48]:
And it takes a while to kind of achieve that. And there's certain. Again, we make sure our reps go out and make sure that the quality is there because they do kind of get premium ranking on the site. But we're, you know, at whatever point a contractor needs our help, we have support. We've got individuals like myself who work contractors. We have engineers, we've got designers marketing, like we're whatever, whatever. Someone. I always tell contractors that just ask us and we don't like to say no.
Joe Raboine [00:10:15]:
If there's a way we can help figure out to make your job easier, we'll try and figure that out. Because again, we don't. Without their success, we have nothing really. So we're strategic partners for sure.
Jack Jostes [00:10:28]:
I noticed that. I mean, just hearing your reps talk with their clients here, it really seems like you guys help them. I was surprised to hear the level of design work that you're doing or when they're doing their own design and they get stuck on something. The level of account management that you guys provide. Yeah, I think that's a differentiator, I think for Belgard.
Joe Raboine [00:10:49]:
Yeah, we appreciate that. I mean, we, we do look at it as. It's a whole solution. Right. And product is just one component of that. Right. And these spaces have become so complex that it's like building a house outside without a roof. I mean, you need all the same skill sets.
Joe Raboine [00:11:03]:
Right? Masonry, you have electrical, plumbing. And so for a lot of contractors, they don't. They're kind of. They get stuck because they don't know how to kind of get to that next level. And we can kind of make connections with other contractors. If they want to partner with them, we can help train them. It really starts with the design on the front. And that's why we're helping with design, because the consumers are expecting these beautiful animated renders they see on tv.
Joe Raboine [00:11:28]:
And it's not cheap. Right. It's not easy or cheap to do that. And so our contractors are kind of like, I don't know what to do in this situation. They don't have time to maybe learn a software or they don't have the money to hire a designer. And that's where we hope to kind of fill in that gap.
Jack Jostes [00:11:42]:
So is that, is that new that Belgard is offering that, or for how long have you been offering that design service?
Joe Raboine [00:11:47]:
Geez, probably 10 or 15 years. It's been a long time. Yeah. And it hasn't changed that much in terms of what we do, but the consumer expectations have radically changed to what they want. Right. And it's great. I mean, we see, we have great stories where contractors are starting to use that approach. And if someone sees their home visually rendered beautifully animated, the closure rates are like 80+%. It’s crazy.
Jack Jostes [00:12:15]:
I believe it.
Joe Raboine [00:12:16]:
Because you just get this connection. Right. Like, oh my God, that's my house like.
Jack Jostes [00:12:18]:
I want that.
Joe Raboine [00:12:19]:
Yeah, exactly. Right. It's immediate.
Jack Jostes [00:12:21]:
Yeah
Joe Raboine [00:12:22]:
And so, so we're constantly trying to encourage contractors to embrace that. Right. It's, it's just a, it's a differentiator and it makes things easier for everybody.
12:30 – Should You Charge for Designs and Consultations?
Jack Jostes [00:12:30]:
So one of the things I presented on yesterday was sales and marketing. And I am in the camp that you should charge for design. Definitely for design. And I encourage many people to charge even for a consultation. And that was a very controversial topic with the audience. Some people really challenged me on that.
Joe Raboine [00:12:48]:
It always is.
Jack Jostes [00:12:48]:
And I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it here. I'm just curious, which camp are you in on that topic?
Joe Raboine [00:12:53]:
So this has always been a hot topic of debate. So I'll give you my opinion. And I think, and again, I can say this because I was a contractor as well for a long time, and we didn't charge primarily for designs. What happens is, you know,
Jack Jostes [00:13:09]:
Even for design?
Joe Raboine [00:13:10]:
We did occasionally, but. But you know, when you, especially when you start out, your, your mindset is like, I have to maximize this job. If I ask for money, they're going to tell me to hit the road and the next guy's going to get it. So you end up, you just chase, you're just chasing all the time. And you're trying to.
Joe Raboine [00:13:22]:
You bend at their every. Every, you know, will. Right. So I. I think we absolutely need to charge, and especially if. If we're able to provide a level of quality that we are today, because you think about it on average, and this is debatable, but if you think about how much time is invested to sell design and close an outdoor living project, it's somewhere between probably 12 and 25 hours. It's at least.
Jack Jostes [00:13:51]:
I shared that number in my talk, and people didn't believe me.
Joe Raboine [00:13:54]:
Well, you think it's two or three site visits, plus the drive time, plus the quoting, plus the design, plus material selection. It adds up quickly. And even contractors that say, Well, I charge $500. All right, well, if it's 20 hours, $25 an hour, is that all you're worth? I would say no, you should be 100 bucks an hour. I mean, look at the mechanics today. What do they bill out? $200 an hour. So you start thinking about that, and the clients we know this is true, that they are willing to pay if it's framed up right out of the gate.
Jack Jostes [00:14:27]:
So are you saying that when you were a contractor, you didn't, but now you're. You're on the other side?
Joe Raboine [00:14:33]:
I'm completely on the other side. I just think it shows that you have value and worth and that you're going to provide something that.
Jack Jostes [00:14:40]:
I think the idea of not charging for design is ridiculous. I think, the thing that I was saying was even charging for consultations.
Joe Raboine [00:14:47]:
Oh, yeah.
Jack Jostes [00:14:48]:
And so that's debatable. Some people don't want to do it. Some people do.
Joe Raboine [00:14:52]:
I think. I would say I was probably opposed to that in the past, but I don't think it's a bad idea. Even if it's 75 bucks, it just shows, like, if this person's a tire kicker and they don't want to pay 75 bucks, then maybe I don't want to spend my time going there. I don't know.
15:07 – Porcelain Pavers: Trends, Sales Tips & Where They Work
Jack Jostes [00:15:07]:
Joe, what other trends are you seeing? So you presented on designing for small spaces, I was curious about. Mirage is a partner of Belgard that makes porcelain pavers. And is porcelain an increasing trend in 2025?
Joe Raboine [00:15:21]:
Oh, absolutely. I think we. So we started our partnership with Mirage, I want to say, nine years ago, 10, quite a while ago, and we started to see that trend kind of infiltrate what would be traditional hardscape. Porcelain is a fantastic product. It meets a price point in an aesthetic that is quite honestly, difficult to achieve with standard concrete pavers. It just is. Right. The challenge is it is more expensive.
Joe Raboine [00:15:47]:
So contractors aren't quite sure how to frame that up. But it's also a little bit, I would say, slightly more difficult to install. It's just a slightly different method. So a lot of contractors are kind of shying away from it. But, you know, we've seen some beautiful projects that mix both. Right. With mixing materials. And maybe somebody's covering a porch right.
Joe Raboine [00:16:05]:
Where you can only cover with a thin veneer. And it's a great.
Jack Jostes [00:16:08]:
I was curious. So we're in North Carolina right now. Where, geographically in the United States are you seeing porcelain as a trend? I've mainly heard about it from clients in Missouri, New Jersey, mainly northern states where there are colder temperatures. Is it growing in the South? Southeast?
Joe Raboine [00:16:26]:
Yeah. I mean, for us, I would say big markets like California, you know, Texas.
Jack Jostes [00:16:30]:
I'm seeing it in California as well. But a lot of the contractors I talked to here weren't using it yet, and it seemed new to them.
Joe Raboine [00:16:38]:
Yeah, it's.
Jack Jostes [00:16:39]:
Is that fair?
Joe Raboine [00:16:40]:
Oh, yeah, it's. And I would say, as a. As a rule of thumb, I would guess maybe 10 or 20% of contractors have ever even tried it. They're just. I think that it's just different.
Jack Jostes [00:16:49]:
There was hesitation around the budget part of it. So how are the Belgard contractors who are selling porcelain? Who's buying it? Is it the upper echelon of outdoor living? Who's buying it? Is it the super affluent? Is it like, where and how are they positioning it?
Joe Raboine [00:17:08]:
It's a good question. It typically is the upper end of the, you know, kind of that demographic, but a lot of people use it for inlays and whatnot. I always frame it up.
Jack Jostes [00:17:18]:
I'm seeing it in small spaces, too.
Joe Raboine [00:17:19]:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, in small spaces. Look, and this is what I talk to contractors a lot about this. You know, don't be. Don't use your own lens as the filter for what you would do or not do. Because the consumers, I mean, they. I'm like, they might buy a Maserati, right? And you might buy a Ford, right? That's just. You're looking for a different perspective.
Joe Raboine [00:17:38]:
And at the end of the day, the context, the percentage of that little bump, right? So if it's a couple dollars a square foot more, let's say, for whatever the material is in the context of that quote and that $50,000 job, what are you talking, like 1%, half a percent. It's so small that. So don't let that kind of cloud your approach. If that aesthetic and that look is right for that homeowner, then offer it to them. Right. And you can always back off from that and do whatever. But. But absolutely.
Jack Jostes [00:18:10]:
Well, and backing off of it was one of the things I shared in my sales presentation was to get a meeting to present your design to people, whether it's in person or over zoom. So if you're presenting porcelain, and that's the budget breaker, you could pull it back or you could reduce it, or you could do mixed material.
Joe Raboine [00:18:26]:
Yeah. Don't just drop your price.
Jack Jostes [00:18:28]:
If you don't have a conversation, then you might be losing out.
Joe Raboine [00:18:32]:
No, for sure. I've seen some just super cool jobs where you integrate multiple materials like that and they're beautiful.
18:40 – Final Thoughts from Belgard University
Jack Jostes [00:18:40]:
Well, Joe, I'm about to go on stage to talk about recruiting, so I better go. Belgard U has been amazing, so I partly just wanted to thank you for having me. And thanks for coming on The Landscaper's Guide Podcast.
Joe Raboine [00:18:51]:
Awesome. No, it's a pleasure. Jack, you did a fantastic job as well. Nice meeting you.
Jack Jostes [00:18:55]:
I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Joe. And if you did, make sure you subscribe at landscapersguide.com/podcast so you never miss any of our episodes. Plus get email invitations to our upcoming events. So check out our show notes at landscapersguide.com/podcast. My name is Jack Jostes, and I'll look forward to talking with you next week on The Landscaper's Guide.
Show Notes:
Watch the full episode + see the transcript at: https://landscapersguide.com/podcast/
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???? Connect with Joe Raboine: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-raboine-863350a1/
????️ Learn More About Oldcastle APG: https://www.oldcastleapg.com/
???? Explore Belgard: https://www.belgard.com/
???? Check Out Belgard Rooms: https://rooms.belgard.com/