If you work in snow and ice management check out today's interview where I talk with Martin Tirado, the CEO of SIMA, the Snow & Ice Management Association. In this interview we talk about what to expect at the 25th Annual Snow and Ice Symposium coming up in June in Milwaukee. Slip and fall liability, changes to salt application legislation, and how you can push back against insurance claims by having the right documentation.
Hey, everyone. Jack Jostes here, and welcome to the Landscaper's Guide. In today's podcast, we end up talking about beef jerky again, and hey, if you want me to send you a bag of jerky and the snow and ice contractor's marketing toolbox, just go to landscapersguide.com/sima. And I'll give you info on how I can send you that toolbox plus some of my top podcasts for snow and ice contractors. And without further ado, let's get into the interview with Martin Tirado, the CEO of SIMA.
Today, I'm excited to interview Martin Tirado who's the CEO of SIMA, the Snow and Ice Management Association, and SIMA has over 1600 members. I personally just joined SIMA, and I'm excited to speak at some of their upcoming events. I'll be speaking at the symposium in Milwaukee, and they have a bunch of other really great events, and a lot of things are changing in the snow and ice industry. And I'm excited to interview Martin today on the show to bring us all up to speed on what's changing and how we can get the most out of SIMA. So Martin, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Martin:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me Jack.
Jack:
For people who haven't met you, just tell us a little bit about your background. You've been the CEO since 2007. How did you get into the snow and ice industry and become CEO of SIMA?
Martin:
Yeah, time really flies. It doesn't feel like 15 years. I tell people that, and then I always preface or follow that up with, is that good or bad? I'm not really sure exactly, but you know what? I've kind of come to, I think it's good. So I focus on that part of it. But yeah, it does go fast. And yeah, I've always just, after I graduated from college, I've always worked in organizational management, either in a community development capacity, but largely with working with a variety of different professional and trade associations or societies, and was able to get an opportunity to work for the snow and ice industry and service providers and contractors. And I took advantage of it. It's worked out great, at least it has for me. And I certainly think that our team as well, our professional staff and our board of directors, we try to do our best to give back to the industry and provide the resources and education and support for service providers.
And yeah, that's kind of how I got into what I was lucky to meet some people that started were on the board at the time and had gone back to SIMA a long ways. We're only 25. Our 25th anniversary is this summer so we're still relatively new. And I'm actually only the second executive director that the association has had. So it's gone by fast, and it's been a lot of fun too.
Jack:
What are some of the things that in leading the organization over the last 15 years, what are some of the things that are maybe the same as when you started and what are some of the biggest changes that you've seen in the snow and ice industry?
How The Snow And Ice Industry Has Changed Over The Last 15 Years
Martin:
Yeah. Well, the things that haven't changed is just the work that we do. And it's definitely can be underappreciated by a lot of people. The work that snow and ice professionals do is it's in the worst weather conditions. It's on nights and weekends and holidays. When a lot of times people are inside because they're not going to be out in a blizzard or ice storm that our members and professionals are out working in those conditions. It's again, some of the worst conditions and it's hard, but it can be very rewarding as well too because when job complete and properties and facilities are safe and clear of snow and ice, there's a lot of satisfaction in that.
What hasn't changed is it's hard work, and it's very rewarding, and it's still challenging to get people who have that work ethic that want to do it. And like every other sector that's happening right now, that it's becoming more and more difficult to find people to get in into this profession. But I think when they do, I think that there's a lot of not only opportunities for business growth and that'd be entrepreneurial, but also a lot for just job and life satisfaction.
Jack:
Yeah, absolutely. A lot of that will never change. And it always has been kind of a challenge to find people to want to do it because it is grueling, and it is at odd hours of the day and in the worst weather, right. So we definitely appreciate the people who do it. What are some of the biggest changes that you've seen?
Martin:
Oh, yes, for sure. Changes, I definitely think that the industry's becoming more professionalized. And kind of going back 15 years, we had talked about, again, me and other people involved in SIMA, how do snow professionals become more looked at or perceived as like other skilled trades in the building and even transportation sectors. Because a lot of those industry sectors, they have licenses and certifications, and you have to have those to be able to perform the work. Just think of electricians and plumbers and skilled carpenters and those types of professions. So I think what's changing is people are realizing that the more they adopt best practices, standards, technology, technology has come a long way particularly on verification, different things revolving around, again, being on site, work perform, verifying work perform, weather, having much more accurate weather services. So that's come a long way just in 15 years. And I think it's continuing to evolve and get better.
Slip And Fall Liability, Changes To Salt Application Legislation
Jack:
Well, and the verification and documentation side definitely plays into slip and fall liability. So talk to us a little bit about what are some of the changes that you're seeing in slip and fall liability and how are some of your members leveraging newer technology to have not only better safety protocols, but also documentation.
Martin:
Yeah. Certainly slip and falls, that's the Achilles heel of the snow and ice industry. Kind of that's something else too, that really is going to change. Anytime that you're out in slippery and wet and icy, snowy conditions, there's going to be slip and falls, both pedestrian and even in vehicular accidents that are caused by bad weather conditions. And well, now I think there's the best practices and we have some. We have an ANSI American National Standards Institute, a verified standard. And one of those standards, it talks about the procurement of snow and ice. And there's a list of the things that you need to have on verification to comply. And that the more that you do those steps and follow those steps, the more that you're limiting your liability, being very exact and when you have personnel and equipment on a property at what time and what the weather conditions were like. And did you do any follow up?
The more that you do that and comply with that, the more that case is some of these slip and fall cases, when they bring in expert witnesses that there's some favorable dispositions to the snow and ice professionals that are doing this documentation and verification. So again, it's kind of following these kind of these best practices and standards that are more available now than there really wasn't anything out there in the past. But it kind of covers a lot of different things to scope of work and level of service, methods of communication, those things all need to be kind of communicated and validated and that kind of stuff.
How You Can push Back Against Insurance Claims By Having The Right Documentation
Jack:
And having that documentation also empowers snow ice contractors to push back against insurance claims. And sometimes these insurance cases are you're being reviewed months later, right. And that's where having that detailed documentation comes in handy. Tell me a little bit about pushing back on insurance claims.
Martin:
Yeah. That's something that we've been talking about quite a bit, certainly at our board of directors level in particular, and just that having some type of a clause in your insurance coverage. That you can actually fight some of these claims and push back, so they aren't just settled by insurance carriers and their attorneys because when those are, the costs may not be direct out of pocket. They're paid by the premiums that you pay. But the indirect costs go up just in ongoing insurance premiums and also in a number of different states and Canadian provinces where insurance carriers are leaving the market because they just are getting too many snow and ice slip and fall claims.
And the less competitiveness there is, that just raises costs and raises prices for the carriers that are out there. So one thing we kind of take a look at is there's some things like self-insured retention groups and insurance captive groups. And also just kind of working really closely with your insurance broker and carriers on if you have the documentation, paperwork, all the verification, and you think some of these claims are fraudulent, you need to have some ability to push back on those and fight those claims.
Jack:
What are some of the things that you've seen help snow and ice contractors win when they're pushing back on that? Is there certain information that you've got to have?
Martin:
Yeah. It's what services were performed by what people and what equipment and at what times, and what were the weather conditions. Those are just kind of some of the things. So it's were you a applying a salt or deicer at certain times that were appropriate when the weather was its worst, was there follow ups on site visits with photo and video verification? That's becoming even more common. We all are aware of this. More and more buildings and properties have video cameras just for safety and for their own security or other reasons for protection. And can you use some of that to show, prove that when that services are performed. Those are really kind of some of the essential things and that those services were communicated effectively with your customer and met their expectations. When you meet those expectations, that's when you're much better protected against these slip and fall claims.
Jack:
Absolutely. And one of the other things that's really changing is kind of always evolving is with salt legislation. So what's happening on a state by state basis that you're seeing maybe making its way throughout the country?
Martin:
Yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought that up. And certainly, there's a number of environmental groups, fresh water sources that are looking at and can actually validate through some research they've been doing over years, that fresh water sources are becoming contaminated. One of the main contaminants of them is chlorides. And those chlorides in many cases are coming from rock salt and chloride application, both on roads highways, but also private areas like parking lots and retail shipping centers. So there's been a lot of movement to make sure that application... We know this, you can't entirely get rid of salt or deicing materials, because there's a massive safety issue. There's been some studies that go back years ago, that show when they're not being used, the amount of accidents just grow exponentially.
So, but it's more of, are you using it, following... Are you trained and are you following some of these training best practices and principles so that you're not over applying? And that's one of the main things is some of the over-applying. There has been at times over applications, just because of the liability that we have. A lot of times contractors carry... The way contracts can be written, so they carry all the liability. And so they're going to do as much as it can to protect themselves. But some of the legislation that's coming down or has been changing, is one of them starting in New Hampshire. They have, it's called the green snow pro training in New Hampshire. And it's not mandatory. It's up to the contractor of the business to go through that training and certification.
You have to verify how much salt that you've applied. But when you go through that and you continue to renew your training and certification, there's a liability protection that comes with it. That's now been in place for over five years. And some other states are actually looking at replicating that similar legislation, particularly right now in Connecticut has that. And a few other states, Minnesota and Wisconsin both looked at that. And they're trying to find legislators who are friendly to introduce very similar bills and regulatory changes of what's happening in New Hampshire. And from SIMA's perspective, where we're at is as long as it's not mandatory and that companies have the obligation whether they want to do it or not, and that there is liability protection for companies that follow these training guidelines, that we're in support of it.
Jack:
Well, and then from a competitive standpoint, I think customers, commercial clients, may be more interested in hiring companies who have gone through those certification processes. So that could be the way that it sorts itself out without making it mandatory. So for snow and ice professionals who want to grow their career and for the people who are listening who are employers, what are some of the ways that they can leverage SIMA to increase the professionalism and training resources for their staff?
How To Leverage SIMA To Increase Training Resources For Staff
Martin:
Yeah. Well, great question to bring up. But we're always asked, when you join SIMA or you want me to join SIMA, what do I kind of get out of it? And it's really kind of the things that are behind what we call like the member wall when you join. We just have an extensive library of different training programs that many of them are free once someone joins the association. And then the ones that you want to go kind of a higher level, there's the advanced snow manager, which is kind of an operator training program that you go through these different modules. There's four modules of training.
And then for kind of the owner, executive senior managers, there's a certified snow professional. And the CSP training kind of covers all the essential topics that a business owner, a business manager needs to know to successfully perform in snow and ice. So it's really that. And then I know we can talk too about some of the in-person events because I think we kind of all know the value when you talk to other associations or other fields, the value of in person training and kind of what you can learn from other people when you see each other in person and have meetings in that regard.